Posie Parker's latest - Glasgow

[TheShadowyFeminist]

I wilted in the heat so missed the pub afterwards. But PP's comments on the 'fawning' I'm finding interesting. Because even at a meeting of women who are fighting for their rights, and the right to say no to any male, irrespective of identity, being given access to female only services/space/provision/sport etc. it seems that female socialisation kicks in when a male wears a dress.

I've been involved in this fight for a number of years now, and I've witnessed how the inclusion of males, irrespective of claimed gender identity, often shifts the tone, the balance, the atmosphere for women & limits what they will say/do to further their cause. It also means that some women who really need that female solidarity can't access it.

I think the 'fawning' is something that we al need to reflect on & work out why this is how some of us behave over someone who (as far as I'm aware) has failed to acknowledge their part in writing guidance for schools that breach female children's rights under the UNCRC.

I think we all need to 'be more Posie' in life & activism.

@Goannaforanna

I think that Debbie Hayton has gone through a process of getting sucked into the gender woo (causing a decline in mental health), transitioning, becoming an advocate along the lines of most trans rights advocates and then waking up and realising that they'd been sold a pup and coming out the other side and advocating against the gender woo and associated policy changes. I think that their beliefs have changed a lot over time.

cf Hacsi Horvath on the recently released Transmission documentary

(transcript)
"When I was about five or so, I wasn't sure if I was meant to be a boy.
I was rather introverted; I was really into books.
I would isolate myself, make piles of books, and just sit in my little circle of books, and just read one of them or something.
I wasn't really into the running around with the stereotypical boyish activities, and sort of roughhousing, I felt a bit strange about hanging out with the other boys my age.

My mother had various boyfriends who were violent.
There was a lot of craziness going in our household, and just people coming and going
and I began to cross-dress a little bit.
I began to think, somehow, that I was meant to be a girl, and that I would someday grow up to be a lady.

Somehow I encountered the GenderTrender blog.
This was August 27th, 2013.
It was there that I learned that children were being transed, and I just couldn't believe it.
I felt this complete revulsion, I wanted nothing to do with any of that insanity, especially the transing of children.
It just blew my mind.

I was still using the name, Tara.
I was still using women's restrooms.
And I thought, "Why am I pretending any of this stuff?
That evening, after crying for a while, I just realized, I'm not going to play around with that anymore.
I don't care how people perceive me.
My name is Hacsi.
I'm a man, and that's all there is to it.
It's simple as that.

I was the oldest of five, later six.
I always felt that I needed to be responsible.
We often didn't have food in the house.
I would go shoplifting, I would literally just walk in the store and fill up the box with basic staples.
Because things were so crazy, of course, the police got involved.
We were taken to foster homes several times, So, things were just really, really scary and crazy.
Well, with all those violent men, it made me feel like, "I don't want to be a man."

One day, I noticed that my employer was offering full-on transgender treatments, hormones, surgery, everything as part of their health plan.
Because I'd been having this problem with the U.S. Passport agency in getting a female passport ... I'd had several of these one-year passports where they say, "Okay. One more year, but then you have to have the operation," I went down to Stanford to meet with the surgeon who was appointed to perform this operation on me, and he asked a lot of questions about, "Well, maybe you should have the full surgery, the neovagina”.I recognized that he was trying to upsell me.
So I thought, "Well, if I have the orchiectomy, having my testicles removed, that will satisfy the passport agency and I can have it all.
Everything will be accomplished.

I can tell you, based on my experience, 10, 12, 13 years into my experience, I thought there was not the slightest chance that I would ever resume my normal life and say, "I'm a man," and stop masquerading.
I just thought that was just absolutely unreal, out of the question.
"I'll be picnicking on one of Saturn's moons before that happens," really.

I remembered having read Janice Raymond and Mary Daly, and I realized that, "I can't even do this anymore.
I think I'm harmless, but I'm not harmless.
Everything I do is undermining women and it's all actually just fakery.
I realized it's just a mask and it's just a masquerade.
I resolved right that day that I was just going to take my name back, and just be myself, and stop trying to make people think I was a woman.
That's what detransition is.
Do you try to make people think you're the opposite sex or not?
That’s all."

Hacsi Horvath on the recently released Transmission documentary

Thank you for posting that, R0 as I'd not seen it.

How very different to Sam Kane:

Believing her astonishing story deserves an update, Sam has invited me to meet her. She also wants to reply to veteran broadcaster Jenni Murray who recently opened a hornet’s nest of controversy by asking if transgenders can ever be ‘real’ women.

But Sam counters: ‘Not only am I a real woman; I would go even further to say that a transgender woman has more claim to womanhood that a “biological” woman.

‘A transgender woman has reached womanhood by the arduous path of achievement rather than by accident of nature. Those who climb Mount Everest have a greater claim to winning that peak than someone accidentally dropped there by helicopter.’

Writing in the Sunday Times, the Radio 4 presenter asked: ‘Can someone who has lived as a man, with all the privilege that entails, really lay claim to womanhood by taking hormones, maybe having surgery, and simply choosing to become a woman?’

archive version of the DM article below: archive.is/cu3Ka

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4369636/The-London-lawyer-s-changed-gender-THREE-times.html

EmbarrassingAdmissions How strange, I was just re-reading Jenni Murray's Sunday Times article from March 2017! I remember hearing some incredibly sexist comments about women's hairy legs on Woman's hour from an unknown (to me) male voice and wondering if I was having auditory hallucinations. It was a relief to find out this was not the case and then incredibly shocking to see how Dame Jenni Murray was treated by the BBC for her subsequent article,

'Jenni Murray: Be trans, be proud — but don’t call yourself a “real woman”
Can someone who has lived as a man, with all the privilege that entails, really lay claim to womanhood? It takes more than a sex change and make-up
(extract)
"The fury that a male-to-female transsexual could be so ignorant of the politics that have preoccupied women for centuries hit me again last year — 16 years after I had met Carol. This time I was speaking to another trans woman, India Willoughby, who had hit the headlines after appearing on the ITV programme Loose Women.
India held firmly to her belief that she was a “real woman”, ignoring the fact that she had spent all of her life before her transition enjoying the privileged position in our society generally accorded to a man. In a discussion about the Dorchester hotel’s demands that its female staff should always wear make-up, have a manicure and wear stockings over shaved legs, she was perfectly happy to go along with such requirements. There wasn’t a hint of understanding that she was simply playing into the stereotype — a man’s idea of what a woman should be.

She described hairy legs on a woman as “dirty”. But hairy legs are not considered dirty in a man. Did she not know that the question of whether a woman should shave her legs or her a rmpits had been a topic of debate among women for an awfully long time? And that to describe a woman who chose not to shave as dirty was insulting and again suggested an ignorance of sexual politics?
Unsurprisingly, my polite and informed line of questioning exposed me to a barrage of criticism on social media. I was a Terf and didn’t understand what Simone de Beauvoir, the author of one of the great feminist tracts, The Second Sex, meant when she wrote: “One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman.”

As a matter of fact, I have understood perfectly what de Beauvoir meant ever since I read her as a teenage girl. Her subject was that “second sex”. She used the word sex advisedly." (continues)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/be-trans-be-proud-but-dont-call-yourself-a-real-woman-frtld7q5c

archive
archive.fo/or9b6#selection-613.0-617.147

Sam Kane' story has some very clear misogyny and misanthropy plus shades of Animal Farm doesn't it?

I sympathise with Murray: it is a wretched fate for de Beauvoir that that is the only phrase from Second Sex that people know, but have appropriated and used it to berate others with no care for the inversion of its meaning.

As Murray says, there isn’t a hint of understanding that they simply play into the stereotypes — a man’s idea of what a woman should be.

I have been struck by how unusually sexist their views of women are in comparison to many men their age and background.

When I was at school a word describing another word was an adjective. So cis woman describes what type of woman the OP thinks this woman is.
So please, no more 'pronouns'.
There is no such thing as a cis woman. You are either a natal woman or a man who can then identify as a goldfish if he/ she wants. Let's not kill our language!

Tangential to the main discussion as it's developed but relevant to this in the OP because the thread discussion the tensions of inclusion and exclusions for groups and their particular needs for support.

I've been involved in this fight for a number of years now, and I've witnessed how the inclusion of males, irrespective of claimed gender identity, often shifts the tone, the balance, the atmosphere for women & limits what they will say/do to further their cause. It also means that some women who really need that female solidarity can't access it.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4305589-and-of-course-some-of-those-women-will-be-murdered

I've been involved in this fight for a number of years now, and I've witnessed how the inclusion of males, irrespective of claimed gender identity, often shifts the tone, the balance, the atmosphere for women & limits what they will say/do to further their cause. It also means that some women who really need that female solidarity can't access it.

When the inclusion is heterosexual males with autogynephillia the women who will be excluded first are those who have been harmed/abused by men with this paraphillia including daughters.

Children of Transitioners
childrenoftransitioners.org/2021/01/24/the-abusive-autogynephile/

Object UK! 'My Dad was an Autogynephile - Emma Bryn - Hidden Voices'
December 2020
"Emma grew up with a dad who was an Autogynephile (AGP), ie his main, perhaps only interest in life was in himself as a woman, and the associated clothes, accessories etc. Emma learned (sadly sometimes from professionals) that her role in his life was to validate and support him in this, thus she was an unparented and parentified child. Interviewed by Janice Williams, she tells us how her father targeted vulnerable women to have children by, causing her mother's schizophrenia and poverty, homelessness and mental health problems for Emma. She wondered why her family was shunned by neighbours, why she had to stay in her room for hours on Saturday mornings and why she could never invite school-friends home to her house. All were because of her father's presentation as a woman. Emma's voice was hidden because as a child she did not even know that her father was unusual, she felt unable to talk about it and when she eventually did, she was not listened to as she should have been.

Autogynephilia, a male-only fetish (self-as-woman-love) often sparks curiosity. We see it as a narcissistic form of abuse perpetrated by hyper-selfish men solely for their own purposes: a form of objectification, using woman and child as forced mirrors of the fake self. No one should have children in order to use them for validation. We applaud Emma's bravery in confronting so openly the deliberately-inflicted harms she survived and in setting up a self-help group for other children of AGP . She is no longer in touch with her father. "

Karen has caught up with Posie.

That analysis by Karen is quite lazy though, isn’t it? Lots of her attack on Debbie Hayton was just straw manning. Debbie Hatton has argued for the things she’s telling him to argue for - I know because I’ve read DEbbie Hayton’s articles.

TBH, I find this People’s Front of Judea rowing pretty annoying. I am not saying there’s nothing to it - it’s just that was quite a lot of passion to direct against someone who is basically arguing for the same thing as Karen is.

@PersonaNonGarter

That analysis by Karen is quite lazy though, isn’t it? Lots of her attack on Debbie Hayton was just straw manning. Debbie Hatton has argued for the things she’s telling him to argue for - I know because I’ve read DEbbie Hayton’s articles.

TBH, I find this People’s Front of Judea rowing pretty annoying. I am not saying there’s nothing to it - it’s just that was quite a lot of passion to direct against someone who is basically arguing for the same thing as Karen is.

What goals do you think they have in common?

Her next video covers Hayton 'sex signalling'.

He's a teacher, ffs.

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

Her next video covers Hayton 'sex signalling'.

He's a teacher, ffs.

Karen is also a teacher and she discusses this in the second video.

"HAYTON: TRANS DELUSION AND SEXUAL SIGNALLING"
11 Sept 2021

What goals do you think they have in common?

To address any doubt that sex is immutable and a biological fact. (Are you looking to cross-examine me too, @TinselAngel? Cos, no.)

I do understand how movements factionalise (totally standard). I consume a lot of GC material, follow everyone on Twitter, attend Posie’s live streams etc and of course not everyone’s take is the same (good!).

But I admit to finding this kind of take downs of each other’s takes wearisome even for my appetite for this stuff. I don’t particularly like Debbie Hayton but just find quite a lot of that stuff unfair.

Well I think between AGP males and gender critical feminists there is a gulf as wide as the ocean rather than it being "people's front of Judea".

I wasn't aware asking one question amounted to "cross examination."

You don't need to @ me. I'm already on the thread.

But they do have that goal in common? To address any doubt that sex is immutable and a biological fact?

I’ve read Hayton’s arguments and that’s key.

(And also I - personal preference - don’t like the ‘Mr Hayton’ emphasis. It’s too easy and a bit cheap. Debbie Hayton does not sign off those articles as ‘Ms’. It’s a turn off - and I have a high threshold).

Debbie's goal is to protect the position of "transsexuals" which Debbie feels would be undermined by self ID. Debbie has said this many, many times.

But Hayton is not arguing for the same things as Karen. She is spot on. DH still uses female facilities etc. DH simply wants to be the extra special one who gets into the lady spaces, but those other ones don't.

DH is a male. Not a female. Why does DH get a pass as a woman when Barbie K doesn't?

Because of 'psychological distress'? I'm sure plenty of males id-ing as women also have this. Is there a chart to tell if they get access or not?

I'm also sure that I and plenty of other women could tell of our distress and trauma, but we dont seem to matter. We will just be left out in the cold, not able to access public life and not even being able to talk about it, because that makes us big Ts.

H is not a woman. DH will never be a woman. Support women.

H is not a woman. DH will never be a woman. Support women.

I read DH pretty frequently. ^this is literally his argument in every piece.

@PersonaNonGarter

H is not a woman. DH will never be a woman. Support women.

I read DH pretty frequently. ^this is literally his argument in every piece.

You need to judge people by what they do rather than what they say.

This is the article that is discussed in the two You're Kiddin', Right?videos.

Unherd
'Why I became trans
The psychological distress was so severe, I felt I had no choice'
BY DEBBIE HAYTON

(extract)
"So why am I also transsexual? What could have caused psychological distress so severe that I felt I had no choice but to transition? At the time — nine years ago — the urge to change not only my social presentation but also my body was irresistible. But can this be explained by differences in psychology, rather than a mysterious force?

Male and female psychologies are not the same. The most obvious difference is sexual orientation. According to the Office of National Statistics, 93.4% of men are attracted to women, while 93.9% of women are attracted to men. But to attract partners, men and women also signal sexually in grooming, dress and presentation, and they tend to do it differently. No doubt some of this will be socially conditioned, but that cannot explain our observations of other species. Peacocks not only possess distinctive plumage, they show it off." (continues)

Sexual signalling is also an observable reality, and it is a starting point to understand why some people are trans. There may be multiple different reasons, but I will focus on the group I know most about: heterosexual males who transitioned in midlife.

Not only can our maleness not be wished away — we are members of the sex that produces sperm, after all — I would claim that the reason why this group wants to wear dresses and makeup, grow out our hair and develop breasts is linked inextricably to our maleness. To quote another transsexual, Anne A Lawrence, we are “men trapped in men’s bodies”. That was the title of Lawrence’s book that contained a series of narratives written by autogynephilic male-to female transsexuals.

Autogynephilia was a term introduced in 1989 by the American-Canadian sexologist Ray Blanchard. Blanchard told me that autogynephilia denotes “a natal male’s tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman.” He added, “in the Western Hemisphere and English-speaking Commonwealth countries, the overwhelming majority of adult natal males presenting with gender dysphoria are of the autogynephilic type.”

It’s not difficult to conceive why autogynephilia can lead to severe psychological distress in heterosexual men attracted to their own bodies. Because their sexual and romantic interest is directed inwards — a target location error according to Blanchard — they respond by sexually signalling to themselves. But while their interest is in females (they are heterosexual), their bodies are male. Clothing may help to create an illusion of femaleness but, for some, medical transition may seem to be the only way to square the circle." (continues)
unherd.com/2021/08/why-i-became-trans/

DH is a journalist, Karen was taking apart his writing - so I’m judging them both on that.

And this is exactly People’s Front of Judea.

I find the idea of femininity as "sexual signalling" both profoundly unfeminist, and coming from a self confessed AGP, disingenuous.

Feminists see femininity as being created by men in order to oppress women. AGP's find that idea of oppression arousing. It's then entire basis of AGP.

@PersonaNonGarter

DH is a journalist, Karen was taking apart his writing - so I’m judging them both on that.

And this is exactly People’s Front of Judea.

"No men in women's spaces" versus "Just men like me, in women's spaces" is not some kind of obscure or arcane difference of opinion. It's fundamental.

I don't think Karen was intending to give a review on Hayton's writing style/journalism.