The Guardian have upped their game, we’re now Anti-trans for asking for same-sex spaces

[AMCoffeePMWine]

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/18/dozens-arrested-in-los-angeles-as-anti-trans-protest-outside-spa-turns-violent

“Women carrying signs reading “protect female spaces” and “It’s worse in women’s shelters”. Calls to defend “female spaces” and “women’s shelters” have become rallying cries of anti-trans groups, who have falsely suggested that trans-inclusive policies endanger cis women.”

This, according to the Guardian, is what makes women anti-trans. It’s infuriating. Using “Falsely” to describe women’s experiences of having biological males in female spaces.

All this from one woman saying No to willies waggling in front of women and girls.

"There's no evidence that something that has been the law for years happened."

Alrighty then.

So the thing is, you kind of are anti trans asking for same sex spaces. Isn't that the point? You are being exclusionary.

The point of single sex spaces particularly where girls and women of all ages are bathing naked is that the majority of women would seek to exclude all adult males. Their gender identity is not the issue it is their sex.
There will be significant numbers of women in California (of all ages, political preferences, faiths and none) who object strongly to the complete removal of sex-based Safeguarding. It's likely that many are unaware of the impact and specifics of laws in California that prevent any adult male from being refused entry to female single sex spaces.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

whenever i click on a guardian article and I get their massive yellow begging message telling me I've read X articles for free this year, I think good. The sooner you fuckers go out of business the better. And never more so than this morning

They used to be my go to place for news and comment. 15 years ago I'd have been on their site every day over the last 18 months trying to work out what was going on with covid. But now they're shit and I can't trust a damn word they way

Something great has become debased. the sooner it just crawls away and dies, the better

Couldn't agree more. It's the Fox News of the Left - propaganda disguised as fact. Like Fox News, it has a few good journalists (Marina Hyde, John Crace, Hadley, Sonya), who have my sympathies, but its heart is rotten.

It should not startle anyone that a stopped clock is right twice a day.

As PPs say, the fact that RW align with other people on one issue and no (or very few) other(s) indicates nothing beyond the power of large numbers when there are so very many issues and topics in the political arena.

The only people women want excluded from single sex spaces is male people.

Obviously some people thing this is bigoted because they think that all males should have the right to put their penises anywhere they want for any reason they want.

This isn't social justice it's male supremacy.

Call us bigoted if you like just own what it is you're actually demanding.

*think

I think some TRA's must have had a lobotomy of some kind when I see their 'arguments'.

I honestly just feel sorry for regular gender non conforming (or trans if you like) people and those with dysphoria. They probably just want to get on with their lives but zealous nutjobs like mishy are making it very difficult.

I always picture them frothing at the mouth. Weirdos.

So the thing is, you kind of are anti trans asking for same sex spaces. Isn't that the point? You are being exclusionary.

Noting without comment that on the guardian app the story has been moved from being the second lead underneath Sajid Javid having Covid to being about the 4th story in the “world section” which is someway down the list of sections….

The left have always been very good at getting in first to level accusations. The idea that the right are racist when anti-Semitism is rife on the left. The idea that the right are homophobic when it was conservatism that got gay marriage into law. There are other examples but these are the most evident. I am on the left and I know that I used many examples when making my case, that dumped the 'shock, horror stuff' onto the right.

This cultural appropriation of TWAW as a stick to beat the right with is ignoring the fact that the majority in our society, when given the facts will agree with the premise that TWANW.

Somehow the extreme on the left have taken over and that is down to years of unbalanced information drifting through TU's, Academia, Civil Service, and our Public Services and though these groups are not society at large, they are positions of influence.

The same is true in the US but the set up of their political system is different. The divide now seems to be large urban areas vs everyone else and funnily enough it has always been thus, so the extra driver now, must be social media and the US control that. They want us in our box and onside but we are not the US, we are not NZ, we are not Australia. We are the UK and we are European in our outlook (Brexit has nothing to do with this). I suspect they are trying out the Guardian as a dumping ground, in the hope they can stem the tide of GC views. Fat chance.

Sorry for the diatribe, so much irritation and anger at the moment

@R0wantrees

So the thing is, you kind of are anti trans asking for same sex spaces. Isn't that the point? You are being exclusionary.

The point of single sex spaces particularly where girls and women of all ages are bathing naked is that the majority of women would seek to exclude all adult males. Their gender identity is not the issue it is their sex.
There will be significant numbers of women in California (of all ages, political preferences, faiths and none) who object strongly to the complete removal of sex-based Safeguarding. It's likely that many are unaware of the impact and specifics of laws in California that prevent any adult male from being refused entry to female single sex spaces.

I highly doubt any trans person who is pre-op would want to parade around naked in a changing room or spa facility where there are other members of the public. What does happen is they use private booths, and that is the norm. If there was/is inappropriate behaviour, the police can step in.

Thankfully open changing spaces are rare. Personally I prefer my privacy and don't want anyone else besides my partner watching me change!

So I don't agree that safeguarding is being removed here. And it still seems very unlikley the incident happened as was alleged. It all seems rather convenient that a Christian lady goes to an LGBT neighbourhood to use a spa, apparently known for having transpeople there. Then takes a video confronting staff, when she perhaps may have been better focusing on the alleged perpetrator.

I remain very sceptical on this! I'm all for safeguarding, but it needs to be appropriate, proportionate and inclusive. Not based on fear of a minority.

@MishyJDI I agree a lot of trans people are just trying to live their lives. This insistence by trans activates of allowing anyone to self ID as they please, and access same sex spaces is actually going to hurt genuine trans people by association.

Do you agree with self ID? If yes how do we ensure this isn’t abused by men with an agenda to harm women or children? I am presuming you are aware of widely published stats on male violence towards women.

@Comingoutfighting

Mishy we know you don’t like women saying NO. It was not a made up incident any more than the thousands of other incidents where men expose themselves to women and children. This is not a debate. We will be talking about it.

No, What I am against is prejudice. If there was an incident, then a police report and charges can be laid. American facilities are pretty good with CCTV, so shouldn't be hard to catch the "Perp" if they existed. So far..... well nothing, it seems.

It just gets me down, how many leap to fear of LGBT people that we should instead be celebrating their diversity and difference. The fear being spread against trans, is much the same as was against gay people in the 80s, and racial segregation as well. It's pretty much the same arguments and tropes. Protect the children. Protect the women. Protect society.

Yes people can say "no". Women can say "no". Fortunately, the larger proportion of women see through the false arguments and are more progressive in their tolerance for others.

I still hold, if anyone behaves inappropriately, particularly with safeguarding, then the police and authorities can charge them and deal with it. From what I see, the vast majority - vast majority, are just trying to live a life without persecution.

Why would there be a police report if it’s not against the law? I think this was pointed out to you on a previous thread too, but you just ignored everyone as usual.

[quote Blackandwhitehorse]@MishyJDI I agree a lot of trans people are just trying to live their lives. This insistence by trans activates of allowing anyone to self ID as they please, and access same sex spaces is actually going to hurt genuine trans people by association.

Do you agree with self ID? If yes how do we ensure this isn’t abused by men with an agenda to harm women or children? I am presuming you are aware of widely published stats on male violence towards women.[/quote]
Why do you think this would occur? Where self ID has been brought in, there hasn't been a rise in cases of this occurring from what I have seen? Even on here, the examples are statistically small.

If a man or anyone seeks to abuse women and children, there is little stopping them entering a toilet or changing room now.

Why would they put a dress on and pretend to be trans to commit a crime?

If anyone, of whatever gender or sex commits a crime or abuse, they can be challenged and brought to justice. Creating fear over trans and other minorities because they are different is just so wrong in my opinion.

@MishyJDI
How can there be a police report and charges when it is LEGAL in California to have naked males in female spaces if they “identify” as women? Police can’t act or report or charge someone for doing something that is legal. It is immoral, unethical, traumatic and horrific for those unsuspecting females forced to share space with male genitalia - but unfortunately, it is not illegal there.

You need a new argument.

Lois Beckett looks about 14 years old. The way she frames women calling out to protect women-only spaces as right wing and anti trans is ludicrous.
I’m done with that newspaper now. I’ve been holding on for the last few months but this is the nail in the coffin for me. It doesn’t speak to me or reflect my concerns. It’s just become a mouthpiece for those who are “so open minded their brains have fallen out”.

Thanks for posting this, OP.

@MishyJDI It's not an "LGBT neighborhood"!!! You are literally lying! (Or ignorant). I used to live a few blocks away from that neighbour hood. It's in Korearown. It's a Korean spa ffs.

We've already been over this in other threads Mishy so I'm not sure why you're feigning ignorance over what actually happened? Well really I do know but I shall lay it out once more for other people reading.

There was more than one lady in the Wi Spa video. Several women and children were in gowns in the lobby area presumably after making a speedy exit. More than one woman was complaining to the management.

This wasn't the first incident at that spa. In the previous one the mother of a 6 year girl, a girl who was subjected to a naked penis bearer getting into a hot tub with her, did go to the police.

She wasn't taken seriously because California law has made it legal for penis people to put their naked penises wherever they want - even next to naked little girls if they can find premises that enable them to do that. The Wi Spa enables them to do that.

In summation. Nobody is legally able to make this a police matter or a safeguarding matter because activists have lobbied and got the law changed in a way that drives a big truck through the possibility of being able to safeguard in any way. Some might argue that was always the goal.

Rather calling women liars for pointing out what activists lobbied for is exactly what they got perhaps you should just be happy that your preferred utopia is happening in California and celebrate the victory.

And I am SO fed up of this argument: "If a man or anyone seeks to abuse women and children, there is little stopping them entering a toilet or changing room now.."

On that basis, since there is little to stop people from murdering, we may as well make that legal too, right?

"Why would they put a dress on and pretend to be trans to commit a crime?"

Why would they need to put on a dress? Do you think that's what trans is?

How do you tell the diffeence between a man pretending to be trans and a transwoman? Not that they need to 'pretend', self id doesn't need tokens of femininity.

The vast majority of tw btw don't have 'surgery' - not needed, any more than the dress.

Are you seriously suggesting that legalising male genitalia in female areas would have no impact on men's sense of entitlement to break down those boundaries?

This thread is not about what happened. We know that a woman of colour complained about seeing a semi erect penis in a spa with naked children around and she was told she was a liar. There’s no point giving air to this offensive take again.

What this thread is about is how the standards at the Guardian have fallen so low they have conveniently forgotten to mention that the incident that triggered the whole thing was a woman of colour complaining about seeing semi erect penis in a spa with naked children around and people didn’t believe her and/or said the semi erect penis is perfectly entitled to be there.