How is it "gender critical" to impose rigid binary social categories based on sex?

[CuriousPanda]

For most of history, the whole point of feminism was to oppse sex-based segregation and restrictions that were imposed by patriarchal society.

So I don't see how supporting strict gender categories, and simply calling them "sex-based" instead, in any way leans itself to "gender abolition".

One might get impression that "gender" is simply being used to mean trans people existing, and "gender abolition" simply means restricting trans people from being able to transition and use different gender labels. And basically nothing else.

With "sex-based rules and restrictions" being basically just gender roles but trans-proofed.

Some people enjoy the process of discussion generally.

Some post for the lurkers.

It's not uncommon.

Say a poster on a predominantly male forum started a thread with a post saying all men are X and horrible.

It would get plenty of replies im sure!

MrGHardy

One thing I will never understand about this forum is how such an obvious bait generated, up to now, 19 pages of replies.

Because we watch the winning court cases. And speaker to the lurkers.

It was the same before FWR was created. It has saved womens lives for many years. Quite literally.

^Speak

@MrGHardy

One thing I will never understand about this forum is how such an obvious bait generated, up to now, 19 pages of replies.

Same reason as boxers train. It’s not a real fight but it fine tunes the punches so they land when it matters. Plus, simple decency demands that some statements and misrepresentations should not go unchallenged.

Because people like OP aka TRUMP seem to think that if you make something up and scream it loud enough, everyone will believe you.

Silence reinforces their delusion.

@NiceGerbil

Whether some people have an internal gender ID or not is an irrelevant argument.

I'm an atheist. I know plenty of people who feel there 'must be something'.

I can't begin to understand how that feels and they can't imagine not having it.

In the end whether it's sex dysphoria or otherwise, no one knows how anyone else feels.

The point is that whether it exists for some people is not the point.

You can't change your sex.
There are certain things where sex segregation is in place for the privacy comfort safety of women and girls.

It's based on sex, not gender. It's always been based on sex for good reason. And the fact that no one can see inside other people's brains, and see their gender, means it is impossible to verify. And even if it was... If we could tell thoughts that way then we could screen out all the men who were weidy creeps and put them on an island somewhere. (Anyone reading who is thinking omg feminist saying imprison men without due process!! Don't bother. We can't see into people's heads).

Yes, I mostly agree with this.

We have learned to live with each other's beliefs in many ways. You do not try to convert my children and I will not try to convert yours (an explicit agreement I came to long ago with a vicar's wife whose child was a friend of one of my children). Live and let live is the order of the day. Fine.

But if you do try to convert my children, or if your false beliefs impinge on me or my society in other detrimental ways, with your connivance if you renege from 'live and let live' then I will attack you and your beliefs.

If trans ideologues were prepared, practically, to tolerate non-believers not try to convert their children and all the rest they should be able to expect tolerance in return.

But no. These crazed irrational so-and-so's have sown the wind in this regard. They cannot complain when they get to reap the whirlwind.

There is no such thing as gender identity. No such thing as a person with a gender identity. And if we accept that a trans person is just someone whose gender identity does not match their sex, there is no such thing as a trans person. If you do not like these facts if the truth makes you feel bad well, tough.

We did not start this. We are now entitled to tell the truth about it. There is no such thing as gender identity.

But apparently people can't just be free to use masculine, feminine, or gender neutral labels and pronouns for some reason.

Why can't you accept that?

Apologies, haven’t RTFT but just wanted to take up this point from way upthread.

If a biologically male person wanted to be referred to by female pronouns and it began and ended there, many people (though not all) would do so quite happily.

But it doesn’t end there, does it? The biolgically male person in question isn’t happy to just be referred to as “she”. This person wants you to believe they are actually a woman, and wants to be able to access all the spaces and services reserved for women.

Biologically male people using what were formerly single sex spaces/services reserved for those of the female sex changes the dynamic of those spaces completely. They stop being suitable for many of the women (biologically female people) they were originally intended for. Women are excluded from their own spaces by the intrusion of biolgically male people into those spaces.

And given that biologically male people have spent several millennia deliberately excluding biologically female people from public life, curtailing our freedoms, controlling and often abusing our bodies, this is not a progressive act.

I have to wonder, CuriousPanda, if you recognise the long history and ongoing phenomenon of oppression of female people by male people at all. It seems to me that you are in complete denial of that history, that phenomenon. Denying oppression is the trademark of the oppressor, or the oppressor’s helper. So it seems to me that you’re unequivocally on the side of the oppressors here. A male supremacist, in other words.

@chickenyhead

Because people like OP aka TRUMP seem to think that if you make something up and scream it loud enough, everyone will believe you.

Silence reinforces their delusion.

Trump is fully on your side on this issue.

You don't get to compare people to Trump for disagreeing with you when your side is literally backed by Trump himself.

I really don't think that Trump is any kind of feminist, let alone a rad fem.

I think you have just as little respect for women as Trump though, Panda, so it’s an apt comparison.

And you don’t get to tell us what we can and can’t do! Imagine that! 🤯

You don't get to compare people to Trump for disagreeing with you when your side is literally backed by Trump himself.

By the same token you don't get to totally redefine the word woman or its meaning as adult human female to suit and enforce your ideology.

That urge to control will always out.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

That urge to control will always out.

It does and is something which the previous President of the USA was very fond of, odd that.

@AssassinatedBeauty

I really don't think that Trump is any kind of feminist, let alone a rad fem.

But he does fully agree with you on the "keep trans women out of women's spaces!!" angle, cloaked under the pretense of feminism. You don't get to deny that.

There aren't really sides @CuriousPanda, there's the world of two sexes just getting on with it (8 billion humans, gazillions of mammals) and there's a few people that believe in gender identity coming up with crazy ideas that aren't really getting much traction.

Why is it always Americans?

Trump

The majority of people in the UK thing he's a dangerous loony irrespective of their politics!

Are posters supposed to think. Oh no! I think sex is important! And so does a man thousands b of miles away who likes sexually assaulting women!

I must be just the same as him in every way.

The idea that a man who boasts about grabbing women by the 'pussy' is hardly going to think sex is irrelevant is he..!

I have no idea what Trump supports, presumably whatever he thought would benefit him at any given moment.

The fact that other types of people think that sex segregation is important, for totally different motivations, is not relevant to the arguments put forward by feminists.

@RedDogsBeg

You don't get to compare people to Trump for disagreeing with you when your side is literally backed by Trump himself.

By the same token you don't get to totally redefine the word woman or its meaning as adult human female to suit and enforce your ideology.

Again, do you really get to say that about anyone when Trump is literally on your side?

Having no respect for anti-trans bigots is not synonymous with having no respect for women. Being a woman and being a transphobe aren't synonymous.

I have little respect for transphobes even if they're women, in the same way I have little respect for racists even if they're women.

The deciding factor is being a bigot against a minority group, not your sex or gender.

You don't get to compare people to Trump for disagreeing with you when your side is literally backed by Trump himself.

Again, you are confused.

Perhaps this diagram can help you.

Trump doesn’t really believe in anything, but he pays lip service to Conservative religious beliefs. However, The religious right believe in narrow gender roles, like you. The only difference is that they don’t believe sex can be changed.

Another thing they share with gender ideologists is the belief that gay people just need to find the right person of the opposite sex.

Donald Trump? is that your argument now? Because Trump.

Jesus wept.

I hear the sound of the bottom of the barrel.

We've reached bigot bigot bigot already!

But he does fully agree with you on the "keep trans women out of women's spaces!!"

Not everyone thinks in black and white panda (curiously apt user name btw).

Some of us can form our own opinions without aligning with binary politics.

MrGHardy

One thing I will never understand about this forum is how such an obvious bait generated, up to now, 19 pages of replies.

Also.

When shit gets out into the real world. Shit gets real.

MNers are the polite ones here. With our twee court cases.

Try and bring in another fundaMentalist ideology into the UK, and it will have people riled up: when the everyday High Street/village Green person is given clear cut information.

We don't have religious oppression here (on a population control scale)

Genderism is the latest fundamentalist religious ideology to attempt colonisation, oppression, obedience and slavery from UK citizens, residents and visitors.

So, most people (given all the facts) will reject it.

We get a lot of very foreign, bad-faith posters on this board who have NEVER (and never will) step foot in the UK.

They sprout absolute bilge. Ill-educated bilge at that. But yeah....

There are people who are against transgenderism for conservative/religious reasons. Of course there are. People who believe that God made man and women to be such and such a way, who are horrified by what they see as deviance from those norms in the same way they’re horrified by “deviance” from heterosexuality.

In the USA it is those people who have raised most of the challenge to transgenderist ideology: the ADF etc.

But not here in the UK. Here it’s mostly left wing feminists, including many lesbians and some gay men. So while you might want to put us in the same bracket as them, we’re not the same people, and we’re not motivated by the same beliefs.

We don’t oppose transgenderism out of conservatism or religious fundamentalism. We oppose it because it’s antithetical to women’s rights, to gay rights, to the protection of children from abuse, to actual social justice and progress. We think it’s you who is regressive and reactionary, you who wants to take us decades backwards, you who is enforcing rigid, confining stereotypes and gender roles.

Trump is one face of Patriarchy, of male supremacism: an obvious, easily recognisable one. You are another but your face is covered up with the glitter of “minority rights” and a lot of people are blinded by that.

Not me. Biologically male trans people are a minority of males, but still very, very much part of the dominant sex class, the sex class with the power and privilege. Absolutely still part of it. Intrinsically. Fundamentally. Immutably.