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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How is it "gender critical" to impose rigid binary social categories based on sex?

999 replies

CuriousPanda · 13/07/2021 21:07

For most of history, the whole point of feminism was to oppse sex-based segregation and restrictions that were imposed by patriarchal society.

So I don't see how supporting strict gender categories, and simply calling them "sex-based" instead, in any way leans itself to "gender abolition".

One might get impression that "gender" is simply being used to mean trans people existing, and "gender abolition" simply means restricting trans people from being able to transition and use different gender labels. And basically nothing else.

With "sex-based rules and restrictions" being basically just gender roles but trans-proofed.

OP posts:
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NiceGerbil · 14/07/2021 19:15

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

how do you feel about these patently GNC-shaming sentiments from a "gender critical" forum?

OP, I couldn't see the comments at the link you sent, with a picture of a man wearing a dress. My own reaction to the picture is that I don't care what he wears, as long as he doesn't try to gain access to anything that's meant to be for women.

For those who haven't looked at the pic it's a chap in a frilly 'little girl' dress.

The idea then is that he identifies as a little girl and is expressing that which is cool.

Slight problem here-

Don't read if you don't want to hear about the actions of a sex offending murderer.

Cross dressing is a very common behaviour in male sex offenders. Clothes that are aimed at women are often a big interest for pervy men. Especially knickers.

Pervy men steal knickers from washing lines. Break into houses and masturbate into the knickers of the woman who owns the house.

Here's a recent example of a fixation with women's underwear with a really recent horrific sex offender.

'His trial at Sheffield Crown Court heard he had stolen sex toys and underwear from student houses and masturbated in front of women in public. A used condom and a pair of knickers - described as a "calling card" by prosecutors - were left at more than one crime scene. In one case, they were discovered beside a toy belonging to a victim's child.'

'Following his arrest on 6 February, Mr Wright said, police recovered the pink holdall "full of sex toys... and some photographs of young women and several pairs of women's knickers and thongs".'

'A serial sex offender who raped and murdered a student before dumping her body in a river has been jailed for at least 27 years.

Pawel Relowicz, 26, prowled the streets of Hull before attacking "vulnerable" 21-year-old Libby Squire.'

NiceGerbil · 14/07/2021 19:22

This bastard is a MAN.

The current idea is that before his arrest he could have walked into any area which used to be single sex. Ones where there might only be one woman or girl in there. We are told to assume that anyone in a female space who doesn't seem female should be given the benefit of the doubt. To challenge is transphobic. Even to change behaviour eg leave is hurtful and cruel.

Anyone seeing him go in, same applies. Not a man. Must be trans. Don't check. Transphobic.

The argument is that women and girls are prey to men like this anyway so what's the problem.

The problem is a massive fucking problem with being neon lights on it.

But we are told to welcome anyone anywhere. Shut up. Like it or lump it. And if they turn out to be a sex offender. Well so what. You are prey anyway. That is a part of your role in society. You need to protect yourself. Yes it will be even more difficult. But so what. Just think of even more ways to 'keep yourself safe' as it's all on you.

NiceGerbil · 14/07/2021 19:27

Sorry went off track.

Cross dressing is a common paraphilia in male sex offenders. That's handy for them isn't it.

Sex offenders being fixated with clothes usually worn by women is common. Especially underwear. Like what women take off and leave in their bag when they go swimming for example. Plenty to take, sniff, wank into and put back.

A man who dresses in clothes associated with little girls is one who I for one would be extremely wary of and not leave any children with ever.

Yes most women and most men would look at your pic and see pervy man.

Are we not allowed to acknowledge an obvious pervy men when we see one now?

donquixotedelamancha · 14/07/2021 19:48

Titania McGrath is a reactionary account persistently mocking feminists, progressives, anti-racists....

So what? The mash report mainly targets right wingers, it's still funny. Why shouldn't left wing idiocy be mocked too?

....primarily followed by right-wing conservatives.

How can you possibly know the political leanings of its followers to the detail of which wing of which party they belong?

This seems like making baseless claims to cast aspersions. Even if they were all from the Tory right, who cares? Are we only supposed to find our own political tribe funny?

Wildgarlicpesto · 14/07/2021 19:49

I'd course we are @NiceGerbil. The trans umbrella is clearly giving OP a few category problems to work through. How kind we are to clarify for OP.

I expect Katy Montgomerie will be updating their article called something like "GCs" believe a load of shite that I just made up because I don't like them any moment now.........

EyesOpening · 14/07/2021 19:50

Years ago I was playing a board game with my family, we all picked our game pieces, they were coloured horses (IIRC). It was quite a complicated game or maybe it seemed like that because we’d all had a few ( we were all adults). My very calm brother was patiently persisting in trying to tell us how the game worked.
Every ten minutes or so though, my dad would pipe up with “but why am I yellow?”
Seems familiar.

Soontobe60 · 14/07/2021 20:05

[quote CuriousPanda]@Ihaventgottimeforthis
Gender critical recognises that our sex in no way dictates our feelings or outward expression or identity or character.

Numerous people here have said, countless times, that being born "male" makes people inherently more dangerous and predatory purely by the virtue of their sex.

Sounds to me like many of you do believe sex dictates character.[/quote]
I think you’ll find that the evidence that over 95% of sex crimes are committed by men, most murders are committed by men, most violent crimes are committed by men speaks for itself.

RedDogsBeg · 14/07/2021 20:09

suggestionspleas1 And the same with transwomen in female only spaces; how do you make that call? The call, quite rightly, hasn't been made for male people to not teach, why should it be made for transwomen to not enter female only spaces? What are the larger complexities of the case? The real risk to transwomen being compelled to use male spaces? The larger mental health concerns for trans people as they experience continuing alienation from the spaces they hope to fit, their increasing social disadvantage, economic disadvantage and poor overall life outcomes.

The larger complexities of the case are simple, allowing one section of the male sex class to enter female only spaces and services impacts negatively on women. What about the safety, privacy, comfort and dignity of the female users? What about women from religious minorities who already have limited access to society who no longer feel confident or will be allowed to use these spaces lest they should encounter a male person in there with the result that their access to society is further reduced? What about women and girls who have suffered abuse and trauma at the hands of males who no longer feel confident to use those facilities lest they encounter a male person in there? What about their mental health, alienation from the spaces that were designed for them, their increasing social disadvantage, economic disadvantage and poor overall life outcomes?

What is the real risk to transwomen using male only spaces? Where is your evidence that there is any?

If one section of the male sex can access female single sex spaces because they declare they are women, what is there to stop any man doing that? Saying that one section of males can access these spaces and declaring other men cannot because the ones that can access those spaces are special or better than other men is discriminatory at best. What is to stop any man arguing that by letting one man in why can't he go in, and if the space or service is doing so by relying on self-id and believing someone is the identity they claim they are they can't be stopped. The minute you decree one member of the male sex can go because of their perception of themselves the space is no longer single sex it is mixed sex and it has been proved that mixed sex spaces have a negative and detrimental impact on the women who need these spaces and services.

People often talk about the law on these boards but sometimes I think there is a complete lack of awareness as to the impact of social isolation and alienation for a person. To my mind, at the point we are in this country, at this point in time, the real harm is not coming from how legislation is enacted or applied - it is coming from the social shame, the harassment, lack of respect, lack of support, the isolation, the alienation - you can not underestimate the impact these things have on lives.

All of this paragraph applies to women. Your lack of awareness is astounding.

Why are you willing to place men and their feelings and desires over the very real need and the right for women to have access to single sex spaces and services and be assured and confident that those spaces and services are exclusively single sex?

Why are you comfortable and happy that the wants of men will result in women being excluded? Why do you care not one iota for those women and their exclusion?

NiceGerbil · 14/07/2021 20:19

OP:

On the one hand

'What is so scary about a penis and balls? '

On the other hand

'Stop thought-raping trans people.'

9toenails · 14/07/2021 20:19

NiceGerbil: "Some people obviously have an internal gender ID."

No, they really do not. Some people (obviously) think they have an internal gender ID, just as some people think they have an internal Napoleon Bonapart ID or an internal immortal god-given soul ID or an invisible-to-all-but-the-special-ones-theosophist-aura ID or ... any other nonsense foolish or gullible people can imagine. The sky is the limit when it comes to internal IDs.

If wishes were horses ... but they are not. And thinking you have an internal Napoleon ID no more entails you do have such a thing than thinking you have won the lottery makes you a millionaire.

To be sure, we should be kind to people who think they are Napoleon, just as we should to men who think they are women. But in both cases they are not what they think they are, and if their false beliefs impinge on any of the rest of us to our detriment we have every right to fight the detriment by pointing out the truth.

How do I know? You ask. How do I know nobody has an internal Napoleon Bonapart ID? I know because there is no such thing as an internal Napoleon Bonapart ID. Likewise, there is no such thing as an internal gender ID. There just is not.

It does no-one any favours to collude in a falsehood. OK, belief in immortal souls is (nowadays -- not in earlier times, for sure) fairly harmless and so mostly not worth fighting over. Live and let live. No harm, no foul, as they say over there. Auras, shmauras, what do I care so long as you love the colours? And so on.

But belief in internal gender ID does harm. And it is false -- there is no such thing. So it is a mistake to ignore it.

NiceGerbil · 14/07/2021 20:25

Apologies OP I did didn't see that another poster had used that phrase.

Another poster whose posts don't resonate with me.

You can't assume that everyone on the thread has the same ideas, motivations, beliefs etc.

merrymouse · 14/07/2021 20:32

If one section of the male sex can access female single sex spaces because they declare they are women, what is there to stop any man doing that?

In practice toilets and changing rooms are allowing all men to use any facility when the criteria for entry is ‘use the facility in which you feel most comfortable’ regardless of the impact on others.

NiceGerbil · 14/07/2021 20:41

Whether some people have an internal gender ID or not is an irrelevant argument.

I'm an atheist. I know plenty of people who feel there 'must be something'.

I can't begin to understand how that feels and they can't imagine not having it.

In the end whether it's sex dysphoria or otherwise, no one knows how anyone else feels.

The point is that whether it exists for some people is not the point.

You can't change your sex.
There are certain things where sex segregation is in place for the privacy comfort safety of women and girls.

It's based on sex, not gender. It's always been based on sex for good reason. And the fact that no one can see inside other people's brains, and see their gender, means it is impossible to verify. And even if it was... If we could tell thoughts that way then we could screen out all the men who were weidy creeps and put them on an island somewhere. (Anyone reading who is thinking omg feminist saying imprison men without due process!! Don't bother. We can't see into people's heads).

RedDogsBeg · 14/07/2021 20:42

@merrymouse

If one section of the male sex can access female single sex spaces because they declare they are women, what is there to stop any man doing that?

In practice toilets and changing rooms are allowing all men to use any facility when the criteria for entry is ‘use the facility in which you feel most comfortable’ regardless of the impact on others.

It's a major problem and anyone who says it isn't is living on another planet.

I know Muslim women whose already small world is shrinking further due to this ideology, but hey who cares about them in this brave new world where men must be allowed to have access to female single sex spaces and services irrespective of the impact on women. Progressive, inclusive, I don't think so everything I'm seeing is the polar opposite, but hey it's only women and girls being impacted and they don't count.

Yepyes · 14/07/2021 20:44

@NiceGerbil

Apologies OP I did didn't see that another poster had used that phrase.

Another poster whose posts don't resonate with me.

You can't assume that everyone on the thread has the same ideas, motivations, beliefs etc.

That's ok @NiceGerbil your rambling posts don't resonate with me either.
PurpleHoodie · 14/07/2021 20:50

Whether or not you agree with NiceGerbil, what they categorically do not do is "rambling posts".

They are clear. Researched. Grammatically and linguistically good.

Mupps.

NiceGerbil · 14/07/2021 20:51

No probs. I do go on a bit. I'm sure other posters skip them as well.

Just in general I really hate the way that the word rape is being used in a host of ways that trivialise it. So that's why it doesn't resonate with me.

midgemagneto · 14/07/2021 20:51

Gerbil isn't rude either

Yepyes · 14/07/2021 20:52

@PurpleHoodie

Whether or not you agree with NiceGerbil, what they categorically do not do is "rambling posts".

They are clear. Researched. Grammatically and linguistically good.

Mupps.

Matter of opinion.
NiceGerbil · 14/07/2021 20:52

That's a nice thing to say hoodie :)

Yepyes · 14/07/2021 20:52

@NiceGerbil

No probs. I do go on a bit. I'm sure other posters skip them as well.

Just in general I really hate the way that the word rape is being used in a host of ways that trivialise it. So that's why it doesn't resonate with me.

Fair point
NiceGerbil · 14/07/2021 20:53

Well yes this is a chat board with loads of different people discussing various topics.

Without differences of opinion it would be dull as all fuck surely Grin

PurpleHoodie · 14/07/2021 20:55

The kind of person you could disagree with; but sit down and have a reasoned debate with, over a nice lunch.

Other people however for example....

PurpleHoodie · 14/07/2021 20:56

"Opinion"

Over-rated linguistic nonsense.

MrGHardy · 14/07/2021 21:26

One thing I will never understand about this forum is how such an obvious bait generated, up to now, 19 pages of replies.