How is it "gender critical" to impose rigid binary social categories based on sex?

[CuriousPanda]

For most of history, the whole point of feminism was to oppse sex-based segregation and restrictions that were imposed by patriarchal society.

So I don't see how supporting strict gender categories, and simply calling them "sex-based" instead, in any way leans itself to "gender abolition".

One might get impression that "gender" is simply being used to mean trans people existing, and "gender abolition" simply means restricting trans people from being able to transition and use different gender labels. And basically nothing else.

With "sex-based rules and restrictions" being basically just gender roles but trans-proofed.

That mistake

What a load of twaddle

All GCs seem to want to do is enforce the concept that there's fundamental differences between men and women, with women being immutably the weaker and more vulnerable sex, which is antithetical to equality and to feminism.

It's about whether things are actually true or not. You can't just make things up because they are what you'd like to be true.

For example:

On average, men are physically larger and stronger than women - fact.

Women, not men, are the sex who menstruate and give birth to babies - fact.

These things aren't true because GC women 'enforce' them. They are true because they are true.

The more you insist of "woman" specifically meaning "adult human female", the more we will insist on trans women being female

Insist all you like. You're still wrong. Anyone or anything can fit into any category if you change the definition of the category. A giraffe can be classified as a lemon as long as you change the definition of what a lemon is. Except that everyone would still know that a giraffe wasn't a lemon.

The thing is, the definition of woman hasn't changed. And the vast, vast majority of human beings know perfectly well that woman means adult human female. And even most of the ones who claim not to agree still know it really (especially when it comes to medical situations or dating!).

And now, you enforce gender stereotypes.

Whoosh!!

[quote CuriousPanda]@PhiRhoSigma
If your suggestion is that humans can actually change their biological sex, then you really have gone down the flat-earther rabbit hole.

Yes, they can. Humans can change their biological sex. Sex is merely a sum of physical components, and many of these components can be altered with HRT or surgery.

It's not a "full switch" or anything like that, but as medical technology advances, there are more and more things we can change.[/quote]

Get away man, you can't change your sex, you can chop bits off, add bits on dress in a frock or some chinos and loafers, but you can't change your sex. Take tablets to stop or promote hormones, but all you are changing is your outward appearance not your biological sex.

😂😂😂

So, you can change your chromosomes can you?

You better get on to the Nobel prize giving hotline. You are in for a medal if you can change your sex chromosomes

I don't think they get what GC means

@Wildgarlicpesto

You're fine with gender non-conformity in theory, but not in practice.

You are the one that brought up cross dressing fetishism. Which is a thing.

I don't care if men do that.

You are conflating women correctly identifying a man in a French maid outfit with women being anti gender non conforming.

Perhaps you should separate those two things in your mind instead of insisting that the group of women you don't like are making those mistake when it's actually you making it.

No, I did not bring up "crossdressing fetishism", I brought up the fact that your stance quickly updated itself from "I oppose gender, people should dress how they want" to applauding statements of "dresses are not for men!!"

My ripped up vagina from child birth wasn't a social identity. My experience of menopause isn't a social identity. When I bled on my school skirt, that wasn't a social identity.
Muppet.

Yes, they can. Humans can change their biological sex.

No.

Human beings aren't clownfish.

Sexed people should dress as they want. Gender is a magical unicorn.

What do you think of when you think of a man and a woman then OP?
Describe these social identities to us.

Masculine and feminine are social identities.

Men and women are what we call adult human males and females.

Like we call adult male cattle bulls and adult female cattle cows.

HTH.

@bellinisurge

My ripped up vagina from child birth wasn't a social identity. My experience of menopause isn't a social identity. When I bled on my school skirt, that wasn't a social identity. Muppet.

You calling yourself a "woman" is a social identity, however.

I'm frequently seeing GC feminists applaud statements like "dresses are for girls, not for men", actively shaming perceived males over feminine clothing

Why would a GC person, or any feminist, make that statement? It wouldn't make sense. Being GC, or a feminist, is about opposing gender stereotyping.

Yes, they can. Humans can change their biological sex.

Excellent! No more endometriosis, adenomyosis, crippling periods, PMDD, pregnancy, episiotomies, fibroids, ovarian cysts, menopause etc etc... I could go on and on.

If only I'd known sooner I could avoided all those years of hormonal birth control too. And the sexual assaults and harassment.

@chickenyhead

Sexed people should dress as they want. Gender is a magical unicorn.

So how do you feel about these patently GNC-shaming sentiments from a "gender critical" forum?

i.imgur.com/1eVZ2Qn.png

*So when a trans woman claims the label woman, she is asserting firstly that everyone under the label Woman shares some mental or emotional characteristics with her that are not shared with other males, and secondly that the physical body and the social experiences that come tied to it are not relevant to being a woman, which has the implicit result of taking all these things which are hugely significant to the lived experience of half the population, the root cause of female oppression, and dumping them outside the remit of feminism altogether.

And it is reasonable that people may object to being relabled without their consent with an identity they don't have.

A trans woman who says she is as woman, equivalent to me in all meaningful ways, has chosen to label herself with a label I already had. But that was only possible by changing its meaning. So in labelling herself she redefines me either as a Woman in her image not mine, or as not a woman at all.*

@Blibbyblobby I find this a really strange argument. A transwoman's choice to identify as a woman says no more about you than my choice to identify as a woman. I am a woman, natal woman, ciswoman/ female whatever you want to say, but my identity as such says nothing at all about your identity as a woman.

I don't know what you're like but I'm pretty unstereotypically like a woman - I guess a few people might describe me as quite masculine - but the fact that I am like that is no comment on how you are as a woman.

I imagine, but I don't know, that I've had a very different upbringing to you, but again that fact makes no comment on how you experience being a woman.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

I'm frequently seeing GC feminists applaud statements like "dresses are for girls, not for men", actively shaming perceived males over feminine clothing

Why would a GC person, or any feminist, make that statement? It wouldn't make sense. Being GC, or a feminist, is about opposing gender stereotyping.

Yeah, it doesn't really make sense, does it? Almost as if they're not actually critical of gender, and don't actually oppose gender stereotyping.

i.imgur.com/1eVZ2Qn.png

Yes, they can. Humans can change their biological sex. Sex is merely a sum of physical components, and many of these components can be altered with HRT or surgery.

No, they really can't.

Sex is not just a 'sum of physical components', it's the mechanism for reproduction.

Surgery is cosmetic and hormone therapy can only make limited changes to physiology.

To change sex (become a sequential hermaphrodite like a clown fish) an organism needs to be able to produce both male and female gametes. Humans cannot do this.

This is hilarious! 😂😂

Define woman;

Adult female human

Define female;

of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.

Soooooo, um where are these people hiding their ovaries, where are they bearing offspring, next to their appendix? You aren't Arnold Schwarzenegger and this isn't the film Junior 😂😂😂

I don’t understand what the purpose of describing some things as social identities is.

Woman is no more or less a social identity than asthmatic, 63 year old, three year old, 4 foot 4 inch tall and so on.

Why does social identity keep getting added to it?

That is a man by sex.

I wouldn't blink if I saw them in the street. Where I live it's pretty normal.

The comment refer to the description of girl, clearly not by sex.

Just be a man who likes dresses. I've dated one. No biggie. But they didn't say they were a girl.

Dress how you like.

OP what do you think the word 'critical' means in the 'gender critical' context.
You are the one assigning social identities to man & woman.
Tell us how you distinguish who is a man and who is a woman - what indicators of social identity do you look for?

@merrymouse

Yes, they can. Humans can change their biological sex. Sex is merely a sum of physical components, and many of these components can be altered with HRT or surgery.

No, they really can't.

Sex is not just a 'sum of physical components', it's the mechanism for reproduction.

Surgery is cosmetic and hormone therapy can only make limited changes to physiology.

To change sex (become a sequential hermaphrodite like a clown fish) an organism needs to be able to produce both male and female gametes. Humans cannot do this.

So you're saying sex is defined by reproductive function, correct?

Does that mean that infertile or sterilized individuals are sexless?