How is it "gender critical" to impose rigid binary social categories based on sex?

[CuriousPanda]

For most of history, the whole point of feminism was to oppse sex-based segregation and restrictions that were imposed by patriarchal society.

So I don't see how supporting strict gender categories, and simply calling them "sex-based" instead, in any way leans itself to "gender abolition".

One might get impression that "gender" is simply being used to mean trans people existing, and "gender abolition" simply means restricting trans people from being able to transition and use different gender labels. And basically nothing else.

With "sex-based rules and restrictions" being basically just gender roles but trans-proofed.

You're fine with gender non-conformity in theory, but not in practice.

Dear panda, my generation were affectionately called gender benders.

Look it up, educate yourself.

Don't be so narrow minded etc etc.

@merrymouse

You made the social identity of "woman" contingent on being "female", so we are going to assert that trans women also fall under the category of female.

Social identity is imposed, not chosen.

So why are you supportive of imposing the social identity of "man" on trans women?

My views are that people can identify & express how they please.
I will happily call people by their chosen name & use their preferred pronouns. If the words man and woman are just meant to represent a feeling rather than a physical reality, then I would disagree with that but would tolerate it probably, substituting male & female when I needed to distinguish between sex classes.
However i don't have to believe, or even say, that trans men are male, and trans women are female, nor do I have to make space for male people in single sex spaces that are there for the safety, dignity & equality of girls & women.
People who are trans should have the right to live their lives free of harassment, abuse, violence, the right to equality of employment opportunity, the right to adequate healthcare, and the other basic rights that humans have but not the right to remove my access to single sex provisions & protections.
I have no obligation to validate other peoples feelings, identities & insecurities.

Yup, I think you're absolutely right. I see very little that's actually critical of gender from "gender criticals" and an awful lot of trying to enforce people staying in boxes. Ironically, most trans people I know are the ones who are actually critical of gender since they're the ones breaking boundaries and norms, and they understand how complex their relationship is.

No, if trans people were truly breaking boundaries and critical of gender then they would happily dress and present as they wish and maintain that they are part of their own sex class and breaking the boundaries of their own sex class, expanding the band with of what it means to be member of their own sex class. Instead we have the insistence that the clothes and presentation they choose are to mimic the other sex and mean they are now part of that opposite sex class.

All GCs seem to want to do is enforce the concept that there's fundamental differences between men and women, with women being immutably the weaker and more vulnerable sex, which is antithetical to equality and to feminism.

There are fundamental differences between the sexes and that is not antithetical to equality and feminism.

And yeah basically a whole bunch of gender critical feminism has nothing to do with feminism at all and is just anti-trans campaigning with women, children and LGB people being co-opted as an excuse to make it seem virtuous (which is ironic since most women and most LGB people aren't GC and support trans equality).

It is not anti trans campaigning and what is the trans equality you support?

@Secondbellini

I don’t understand why if some people want categories that are based on interests rather than biology they don’t just invent some totally new categories and use those.

Like some people are emos. Why don’t they just invent a category that is about whatever these gender interests are supposed to be and refer to themselves as that?

Misogyny, basically.

Old as time.

Oh dear

Please this person cannot differentiate between sex and gender. Stop engaging with this rubbish.

@Siblingquandary

You're fine with gender non-conformity in theory, but not in practice.

Dear panda, my generation were affectionately called gender benders.

Look it up, educate yourself.

Don't be so narrow minded etc etc.

You actively support stigmatizing perceived males over dressing feminine. I don't care what your "generation" was called, the fact remains that now you are nothing short of gender police.

Before all this gender identity stuff came along, we actually seemed to be making massive inroads into getting rid of a bunch of gender stereotyping and all sorts of opportunities and freedom were opening up.

It now feels like what is acceptable for women is becoming narrower and narrower and the possibility of being seen as a full human being who is interested in all sorts of things, most of which have nothing to do with gender, is being closed down.

I love that fantasy world TRAs have created that GC people are all Stepford Wives . Just draws attention to the flimsiness of the TWAW argument.

Plus the terms man & woman don't have to come with any social expectation or assumption unless you wish them to - why are you projecting on to us what you think the social identity of a man is?
A man is simply an adult male human, nothing more, nothing less.

CuriousPanda you don't need to be a biologist to know on average women are smaller, not as physically strong as males and are therefore more vulnerable.

I'm just over 5ft my brother is just over 6ft. He is stronger, faster and larger than me. If we were to re-live our youth and have a fist fight in the back garden, he would win easily. I would have no chance against him, I'm more vulnerable than him.

How is that statement incorrect?

Because of the effects of male puberty most women can be physically overpowered by most men. That does not mean that women are 'weak'. Women can beat men in competitions that depend on mental strength and endurance. However, it does mean that women need specific rights and protections to participate equally in society. People who argue otherwise generally give the impression that they are 12. Which is a bit embarrassing.

You made the social identity of "woman" contingent on being "female", so we are going to assert that trans women also fall under the category of female.

You can assert that all you like, it's just arrant nonsense and fails in every aspect including legally and medically.

You aren't going to comprise, so neither will we.

At last an admission that the agenda is the destruction of the rights of women.

@CuriousPanda

Basically: The more you insist of "woman" specifically meaning "adult human female", the more we will insist on trans women being female.

If your suggestion is that humans can actually change their biological sex, then you really have gone down the flat-earther rabbit hole.

@chickenyhead

Oh dear

Please this person cannot differentiate between sex and gender. Stop engaging with this rubbish.

The social identities of "man" and "woman", the "he" or "she" pronouns, these are all gender, whereas sex refers strictly to one's physiology, not to the social categories assigned by humans.

Any social rules around sex, ascribing any social significance to sex, is gender as well.

You're the one who can't differentiate between them, conflating them together.

No, if trans people were truly breaking boundaries and critical of gender then they would happily dress and present as they wish and maintain that they are part of their own sex class and breaking the boundaries of their own sex class, expanding the band with of what it means to be member of their own sex class.

Women have done this for a very long time. Men find it a challenge.

You actively support stigmatizing perceived males over dressing feminine. I don't care what your "generation" was called, the fact remains that now you are nothing short of gender police

Apologies, I forgot I need to dumb things down for you and that you're not capable of understanding nuance or humour.

My generation actively challenged gender stereotypes. Yes we got stick for it, e.g. being called gender benders but we just did our own thing and got on with it.

@PhiRhoSigma
If your suggestion is that humans can actually change their biological sex, then you really have gone down the flat-earther rabbit hole.

Yes, they can. Humans can change their biological sex. Sex is merely a sum of physical components, and many of these components can be altered with HRT or surgery.

It's not a "full switch" or anything like that, but as medical technology advances, there are more and more things we can change.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Trans women are adult human females.

I'm not sure any "trans women" will be using that emoticon if you insist that only female catheters can be used on them if they're hospitalised.

😂 ouch

So why are you supportive of imposing the social identity of "man" on trans women?

I'm not imposing a social identity on anyone.

When I talk about men and women I am only referring to sex.

@Siblingquandary

You actively support stigmatizing perceived males over dressing feminine. I don't care what your "generation" was called, the fact remains that now you are nothing short of gender police

Apologies, I forgot I need to dumb things down for you and that you're not capable of understanding nuance or humour.

My generation actively challenged gender stereotypes. Yes we got stick for it, e.g. being called gender benders but we just did our own thing and got on with it.

And now, you enforce gender stereotypes.

You're fine with gender non-conformity in theory, but not in practice.

You are the one that brought up cross dressing fetishism. Which is a thing.

I don't care if men do that.

You are conflating women correctly identifying a man in a French maid outfit with women being anti gender non conforming.

Perhaps you should separate those two things in your mind instead of insisting that the group of women you don't like are making those mistake when it's actually you making it.

Twisty twisty make shit upy.

Sex and gender are separate, always have been always will be.

Sex is a biological fact.

Gender is a Social construct, applicable only to some and assumed for others.

You are so sweet and funny. Keep being you.

Wow

Someone had gone from being unable to grow babies to being able to grow babies ?

Can you post a link?

Or is sex boobs and bums to you ?

@merrymouse

So why are you supportive of imposing the social identity of "man" on trans women?

I'm not imposing a social identity on anyone.

When I talk about men and women I am only referring to sex.

"men" and "women" are social identities, they are inherently part of gender rather than sex.