How is it "gender critical" to impose rigid binary social categories based on sex?

[CuriousPanda]

For most of history, the whole point of feminism was to oppse sex-based segregation and restrictions that were imposed by patriarchal society.

So I don't see how supporting strict gender categories, and simply calling them "sex-based" instead, in any way leans itself to "gender abolition".

One might get impression that "gender" is simply being used to mean trans people existing, and "gender abolition" simply means restricting trans people from being able to transition and use different gender labels. And basically nothing else.

With "sex-based rules and restrictions" being basically just gender roles but trans-proofed.

Trans women are adult human females.

Prove that legally. In the absence of a GRC.

@CuriousPanda

For most of history, the whole point of feminism was to oppse sex-based segregation and restrictions that were imposed by patriarchal society.

So I don't see how supporting strict gender categories, and simply calling them "sex-based" instead, in any way leans itself to "gender abolition".

One might get impression that "gender" is simply being used to mean trans people existing, and "gender abolition" simply means restricting trans people from being able to transition and use different gender labels. And basically nothing else.

With "sex-based rules and restrictions" being basically just gender roles but trans-proofed.

Yup, I think you're absolutely right. I see very little that's actually critical of gender from "gender criticals" and an awful lot of trying to enforce people staying in boxes. Ironically, most trans people I know are the ones who are actually critical of gender since they're the ones breaking boundaries and norms, and they understand how complex their relationship is. All GCs seem to want to do is enforce the concept that there's fundamental differences between men and women, with women being immutably the weaker and more vulnerable sex, which is antithetical to equality and to feminism.

And yeah basically a whole bunch of gender critical feminism has nothing to do with feminism at all and is just anti-trans campaigning with women, children and LGB people being co-opted as an excuse to make it seem virtuous (which is ironic since most women and most LGB people aren't GC and support trans equality).

That has always been, and continues to be, nothing but a strawman.

Except nobody can explain why it is a straw man or why play is so often categorised as gendered when discussing trans children.

I'm frequently seeing GC feminists applaud statements like "dresses are for girls, not for men", actively shaming perceived males over feminine clothing

Ok so do you think that man has bought that dress because he's a French maid and needs it for work?

@merrymouse

Trans women are adult human females.

If you don’t care whether they live or die when receiving medical treatment. Maybe you don’t?

That is a poor argument. Telling doctors that the patient is a trans woman is far more informative than insisting on only saying "male".

@Wildgarlicpesto

I'm frequently seeing GC feminists applaud statements like "dresses are for girls, not for men", actively shaming perceived males over feminine clothing

Ok so do you think that man has bought that dress because he's a French maid and needs it for work?

Who cares why they bought a dress? I though we were all free to dress however we want?

Trans women are adult human females.

I'm not sure any "trans women" will be using that emoticon if you insist that only female catheters can be used on them if they're hospitalised.

Trans women are adult human females.

That's the best you can do and attach a smiley face?

You know full well that transwomen are not adult human females, they are not of the sex class female, it is impossible for them to be so.

Trans women are adult human females.

Trans women are not adult human females

OP - "No one is trying to restrict how people can dress or feel, but you are trying to restrict how people are allowed to identify themselves."

Assume you are OK with someone white 'identifying' as black then?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Trans women are adult human females.

I'm not sure any "trans women" will be using that emoticon if you insist that only female catheters can be used on them if they're hospitalised.

Read up.

That is a poor argument. Telling doctors that the patient is a trans woman is far more informative than insisting on only saying "male".

Trans women and their doctors are both well aware what trans women's bodies are like. This is in no way an argument in favor of allowing you to misgender trans women.

No one is trying to restrict how people can dress or feel, but you are trying to restrict how people are allowed to identify themselves.

Again, what this individualistic trans ideology can't or won't see is that an individual's identity is not the sole yardstick by which everything must be measured.

When you claim membership of a group you don't just label yourself, you label everyone in that group as being like you.

So when a trans woman claims the label woman, she is asserting firstly that everyone under the label Woman shares some mental or emotional characteristics with her that are not shared with other males, and secondly that the physical body and the social experiences that come tied to it are not relevant to being a woman, which has the implicit result of taking all these things which are hugely significant to the lived experience of half the population, the root cause of female oppression, and dumping them outside the remit of feminism altogether.

And it is reasonable that people may object to being relabled without their consent with an identity they don't have.

A trans woman who says she is as woman, equivalent to me in all meaningful ways, has chosen to label herself with a label I already had. But that was only possible by changing its meaning. So in labelling herself she redefines me either as a Woman in her image not mine, or as not a woman at all.

What gives her the right to claim her identity by denying me mine?

The gender ideologists are obsessed with who gets to use which labels, and the horror of being labelled with a name you don't accept. But they totally miss that when they redefine labels that others already have they are doing exactly the same thing.

I've just read the abstract of that rhesus monkeys research and discovered it's about 34 monkeys who were given human wheeled toys and plush toys. Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences.

I'm crushed to discover that I could have proved I was a boy, if only this research had been published in the 1960s. I hadn't realised my love of bicycles, scooters, toy cars etc meant I was male.

I certainly wanted to be a boy, because women's lives looked boring while men had all the fun and adventures. Luckily Women's Liberation came along and my female life got a lot more interesting.

But I don't know how to break the news to my bike-loving, digger-driving nieces that they're not proper girls ....

@RedDogsBeg

Trans women are adult human females.

That's the best you can do and attach a smiley face?

You know full well that transwomen are not adult human females, they are not of the sex class female, it is impossible for them to be so.

You made the social identity of "woman" contingent on being "female", so we are going to assert that trans women also fall under the category of female.

You aren't going to comprise, so neither will we.

Who cares why they bought a dress? I though we were all free to dress however we want?

You were shocked that women correctly identified it as fetish wear.

Honestly are you really this naive?

Telling doctors that the patient is a trans woman

'Trans woman' does not imply anything medically - just that somebody has a particular concept of their own identity. Given that some people whose birth sex is female identify as female presenting and trans, it doesn't even imply that the sex of the patient isn't female.

I'm surprised you aren't aware of this.

Basically: The more you insist of "woman" specifically meaning "adult human female", the more we will insist on trans women being female.

This is in no way an argument in favor of allowing you to misgender trans women

Allowing? Oh dear. I really don't need permission.

@Wildgarlicpesto

Who cares why they bought a dress? I though we were all free to dress however we want?

You were shocked that women correctly identified it as fetish wear.

Honestly are you really this naive?

A man dressing feminine is "fetish wear".

Ah, I see the GC stance quickly updated from "people are free to dress however they want regardless of sex" to "men dressing feminine are immediately suspect".

You're fine with gender non-conformity in theory, but not in practice.

Basically: The more you insist of "woman" specifically meaning "adult human female", the more we will insist on trans women being female

So.. thought rape?

@merrymouse

Telling doctors that the patient is a trans woman

'Trans woman' does not imply anything medically - just that somebody has a particular concept of their own identity. Given that some people whose birth sex is female identify as female presenting and trans, it doesn't even imply that the sex of the patient isn't female.

I'm surprised you aren't aware of this.

It gives the doctor a hint that they should account for things like HRT and surgery, which important information during treatment.

All GCs seem to want to do is enforce the concept that there's fundamental differences between men and women, with women being immutably the weaker and more vulnerable sex, which is antithetical to equality and to feminism.

You're really embarrasing yourself now.

@Beowulfa

All GCs seem to want to do is enforce the concept that there's fundamental differences between men and women, with women being immutably the weaker and more vulnerable sex, which is antithetical to equality and to feminism.

You're really embarrasing yourself now.

How is that statement incorrect?

You made the social identity of "woman" contingent on being "female", so we are going to assert that trans women also fall under the category of female.

Social identity is imposed, not chosen.

I don’t understand why if some people want categories that are based on interests rather than biology they don’t just invent some totally new categories and use those.

Like some people are emos. Why don’t they just invent a category that is about whatever these gender interests are supposed to be and refer to themselves as that?