Does anyone ever wonder how this will end?

[dyslek]

I can see three scenarios.

1. women lose and we end up living in some nightmarish high tec version of ancient Rome, where woman and children is a sub human resource to be exploited in anyway a man wants at an given moment.
2. the mass hysteria quietly dies down and every kind of pretents this was never a thing (and in fact it was only those nasty feminists making a fuss that caused all this misunderstanding in the first place).
3. due to the sheer insanity of gender idology, society slowly starts to listen to women and the horror of the unfairness wakes everyone up to womans humanity and gender stereotypes and finally totally abandoned and we all live happly ever after.

How about the old word we used to use, back in the day, before all this modern stuff - transvestite? It describes the male, middle-aged, middle class, white AGP lot perfectly.

Or Mtf transvestite, to be even clearer?

But I've not tried using this phrase on this here board, so don't know how it plays with the Rules.

@IsItAKindofDream

So we can stop with the misleading term “Transwoman”?

is it misleading ? how? (not picking a fight ...)

I'm not a transwoman but I am a Transsexual Woman ... so do you see this as a misleading term ?

(and to all those of whatever persuasion who have trouble with my using the 'Transsexual word ... grow the fuck up willya ... ?

IsItAKindofDream

MNHQ kept deleting "Tifs" "Tims" "Trans females" "Trans males" and "CIS".

But they've let the sexist slur "cis" stand a lot these days. They seemingly have changed their terms.

Ergo: "Trans identified male" " Trans identified female" is now acceptable to them.

Of course, the existence of detransistioners puts a spanner in the works of language gaurdians.

One day there might be a world where people are just that people. Humans are humans.

I used to see labels as a good thing man , woman , black , white - but now I see them as boxes to put us in. I long for the day where we see each other as people rather then the Headteacher is a ‘woman’ or it’s great she’s openly gay etc that the Headteacher is just seen as a fantastic HT.

@Movingonupupup

One day there might be a world where people are just that people. Humans are humans.

I used to see labels as a good thing man , woman , black , white - but now I see them as boxes to put us in. I long for the day where we see each other as people rather then the Headteacher is a ‘woman’ or it’s great she’s openly gay etc that the Headteacher is just seen as a fantastic HT.

And that's ok when thinking about a headteacher - but as post after post explains, there are certain times when the fact I am a woman matters.

Yes.

@oldwomanwhoruns

How about the old word we used to use, back in the day, before all this modern stuff - transvestite? It describes the male, middle-aged, middle class, white AGP lot perfectly.

Or Mtf transvestite, to be even clearer?

But I've not tried using this phrase on this here board, so don't know how it plays with the Rules.

I don't like the word "transvestite " for no other reason than it sounds like an ugly word.

Not really sure though why you feel colour and class have a bearing on being a transvestite?

It would definitely be better if those under the trans umbrella were given more definitive names depending on exactly what trans means in their particular case rather than the all encompassing "trans"

Yes it's interesting @Imasoulman
On one hand we have the many, many many labels that people want to give themselves. And in the other, 'trans' has become an umbrella to cover a whole host of things.

[quote joolzfromyork]@IsItAKindofDream

So we can stop with the misleading term “Transwoman”?

is it misleading ? how? (not picking a fight ...)

I'm not a transwoman but I am a Transsexual Woman ... so do you see this as a misleading term ?

(and to all those of whatever persuasion who have trouble with my using the 'Transsexual word ... grow the fuck up willya ... ?[/quote]
It’s misleading because some people write it as two words, which makes it seem to some people that it is a Female-to-“male” person (apologies - it’s difficult not to be clumsy with the language).

“Transsexual woman” sounds like it could be a transman.

It’s also misleading, as it makes some people think that the person has actually changed sex, which is, of course, impossible.

To clarify my post above - the word “it” refers to the terms being used, not a person. I’m not referring to anyone as “it” but I realise it could look like that.

yeah, I think a lot of people would interpret Transexual woman as a woman who is transexual,ie a transman.
Its easy to forget that 90+% of the population have absolutly no idea any of this is going on.
I always liked the term Trans Identified man/ woman. I always felt if was not only very accurite but respectful too, it explained who people were in a way that was not putting any judgment on anyone.

Though thinking about it, it probably would not be that great for an actual transexual (I do think there is a difference between a man who suffers gender dysphoria and fully transitions and just wants to live a an ordinary life and, well, people who arnt like that).

@dyslek, be careful as the term you used above is one of those potentially "problematic" phrases.

IIRC it was the acronym of the phrases Trans Identified Male and Trans Identified Female that were problematic, although this was in the days before 'female' started being appropriated too.

IMO, the acronyms were used in the same way they've been used in online discussion for years, as short hand - such as the MN acronyms page (does that still exist?). However, I've always wondered whether the monitors didn't believe that it was a simple acronym because they said that about t-rf and they knew that was a lie so assumed the same of us. I think they assume that we used those acronyms with the same venom and hatred that they have when they call us t-rfs.

I don't think we used those acronyms as a slur and, most importantly, I don't think we used those acronyms in real life when discussing these issues whereas I'm not sure the same can be said for t-rf. No GC feminist was going around shouting about [acronym left out to avoid deletion].

Anyway, pedantry over

Sorry, but both the acronym and the words are not allowed, if you read the "guidance" pinned to the top of this board.
Which is a shame, as it is actually a good descriptor, imo.

My word ... this shit does get awkward doesn't it ?

You say 'x' and other people believe that You said 'z'

Fuck it

Back in the day (yeah I'm old) I was referred to as a
M-T-F Transsexual Woman
I've never had a problem with that ... and to be honest if anyone I ever interact with on MN thinks they might choke on the word 'Woman' in this context then by all means refer to me as a M-T-F Transsexual

I wont cry ... honest

Thank you, @joolzfromyork apparently, as you have "given permission" I think the rules allow us to use your description. But not 100% sure!

joolz, fwiw, it wouldn't have bothered me once, but it does now, for all the reasons I'm sure you're familiar with. But I appreciate the fair minded response, and I think MTF transsexual or just MTF is perfectly serviceable.

The difficulty is clarity of language. Acronyms are just quicker than very complicated nuanced phrases, and the women here are often trying to explain emotionally difficult things wrt our reasons for wanting single sex provision, which means complicated and arbitrary language rules are a real barrier to useful, constructive conversation.

@joolzfromyork

My word ... this shit does get awkward doesn't it ?

You say 'x' and other people believe that You said 'z'

Fuck it

Back in the day (yeah I'm old) I was referred to as a
M-T-F Transsexual Woman
I've never had a problem with that ... and to be honest if anyone I ever interact with on MN thinks they might choke on the word 'Woman' in this context then by all means refer to me as a M-T-F Transsexual

I wont cry ... honest

I'll call you joolz if that's cool and you can be you, just as you are.

My preciousness about the word woman is not about actually naming trans, it is purely because I have no idea what it means anymore. Nor what to expect anymore. I have no education in gender and raising 3 kids, that's pretty terrifying.

@SpringCrocus

I think the rules allow us to use your description. But not 100% sure!

Perhaps we should find out ... (who can we ask ... or do we just hope a mod chimes in?)

I agree, I didn't used to mind, I wanted to be "be kind"
Now, I tend to stick to names. I feel the word woman should be reserved for, well, someone who is one.

[quote CuriousPanda]@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark
I'm literally opposed to the notion that "women are inherently weaker, I'm opposed to the constant assertions of male physical superiority that you^ keep making.[/quote]
I'm just catching up. Very busy week.

This made me laugh.

Strength and superiority.

Let me see. 30+ years of education and then being the educator in human physiology, biomechanics and sport.

Inherent truth: men, as a class, are faster and stronger than women, as a class.

Shown many times in many sports. Even before puberty this is true.

Try using endurance as a measure, in any activity, form running to pain management. Women are measurably 'better', last longer.

But 'superior', unless you are referring to the thing that is physically situated in a position higher than another thing ( usual placement of head over feet for example), is a value judgement.

Male superiority is based in patriarchy. Humans as a society don't value the things they don't excel in. Men are less likely to value endurance as women capitalise on having been allowed parity in sport and start to extend the iron 'man' distances and beat men in real time - as in women who start the race at the same time as men will finish first.

Dora the Explorer will prove to have been a biological truism.

So please, if you want to lie and twist what has been said to make some point don't use physiology to do so. I will usually respond and laugh at you!