Non Binary passport appeal on Mon

[Imnobody4]

Hadn't heard anything about this. Fingers crossed it goes the right way.

12th July an important appeal will be heard at the Supreme Court. A claimant called Mx Elan-Cane claims a non-binary identity and wants an X on their passport instead of Female. Elan-Cane argues this is a breach of their human rights. The UK government claims any such breach is justified because retaining the sex binary is important.

fairplayforwomen.com/non-binary-the-new-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing/

Who on earth decided that planning policy on the basis of yoga was a good idea?

What EC wants is for EC and others like EC to be allowed to answer one question (what is your sex?) with the answer to another question (what is your gender identity?) as if one can be a substitute for another. It's special pleading of the highest order. It should be resisted

Exactly that - well said, Anya. I’m fed up with this twatwittery.

On a lighter note, it reminded me of this sketch:

As you didn't put a grin emoji after your comment Toffeebutter, the place where the principles were put together I believe, nothing to do with Yoga

Thanks Breathe that was brilliant 🤣

I'm actually about to renew both my British passports (have two due to visa issues)...

I may see if I can state my sex as male in one and female in the other whilst doing the applications...

This comment was on the Freddie thread linked above
"but you do have to admire the skills of some of the Judges in throwing judicial shade in subtle ways such as Choudary calling Forstater's views 'widely shared' rather than 'widely held' the TERFs missing that point." What are they saying?
Well if there was a point in that word choice I guess I did miss it. 'Held' can mean 'ruled' in a legal context, but that's not what the judge meant. He just meant lots if people also believe this.

Anyway. It will be a really scary thing if the court agree that because the NHS did a hysterectomy, then the state should allow ppl not to disclose their sex on a passport. The surgeon who made the decision that it was in the best interest of the patient to have a particular treatment was only weighing up a clinical decision. They did not know they were deciding how the state should administrate passports. The same argument can be made about general legal recognition of non binary if it is allowed here. It will be really worrying if that argument gets any glimmer of positive reaction in the judgement, whichever way it goes.

@BreatheAndFocus the fact is that this is now confusing other organisations. Filling in a student record the other day and the questions were

"What is the gender (as in on your passport)

And then

"How do you identify?"

It's not gender on my passports, it's sex.

Either sex is relevant on a passport and it should be factual or it isn’t relevant and it should not be present, but it should not be recorded incorrectly under any circumstances.

Either sex is relevant on a passport and it should be factual or it isn’t relevant and it should not be present, but it should not be recorded incorrectly under any circumstances.

From yesterday's live tweeting by Fairplay For Women,
"QC explains HMPO guidance. "option open to those without a GRC and without gender reassignment surgery". Requires only "letter from doctor saying change of gender is permanent"

At some point doctors must be challenged as to what they mean by a "permanent change of gender" and government must be challenged as to the acceptance of such a claim and the legitimacy of those providing it. For example, in light of the forthcoming GMC Tribunal for Dr Helen Webberley's fitness to practise, has she provided such letters?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4288795-Helen-Webberley

So would I need a new passport if I began to question my gender identity? I mean, these things are not set in stone, as we all know.

Also, I thought he was inferring the judge's use of 'widely shared' was a dry comment on the widely and interminably publicised opinions. Which is often the case when people are pushing an opinion. In Maya's case I'd go with widely held, myself.

At some point doctors must be challenged as to what they mean by a "permanent change of gender"

What is the definition of a 'change of gender', permanent or otherwise? How does a man 'live as a woman'?

Since people are claiming that they can 'change their gender' or 'live as' the opposite sex, we could really do with a definition of exactly what this entails.

Did he just say that it is gender identity recorded on a passport though recorded under the “old fashioned term” sex? Or did I misinterpret what he was saying?

At some point doctors must be challenged as to what they mean by a "permanent change of gender" and government must be challenged as to the acceptance of such a claim and the legitimacy of those providing it.

Yes. This has to be the next thing.

Because if changing your gender means being ceded all the rights based on sex, then there has to be a discussion of what constitutes sex.

It's the bottom line for all of this.

Yes, somebody has taken the term widely shared literally. And thinks it means one person telling tons of others.

It doesn't. It means we, and almost everybody else, all share the same opinion.

Yes that is what I thought he said, that on the application it asked for gender identity but it was then recorded on the passport in the old fashioned terminology of sex.

Sorry that was in reply to Signal box

@purplebutterflybiscuits

Yes that is what I thought he said, that on the application it asked for gender identity but it was then recorded on the passport in the old fashioned terminology of sex.

Holy crap that’s a bizarre argument to make. We’re all going to have to apply for the X at this rate!

.

[quote Oceanos]@BreatheAndFocus the fact is that this is now confusing other organisations. Filling in a student record the other day and the questions were

"What is the gender (as in on your passport)

And then

"How do you identify?"

It's not gender on my passports, it's sex.[/quote]
That’s a good example of the idiocy. There seem to be at least two separate things going on - some people thinking ‘gender’ is the modern word for Sex, and others purposely using ‘gender’ to try to override Sex.

Quite apart from the whole gender ideology side, I feel very pissed off at the idea that some people might be allowed to, basically, lie on their passport. Why can’t we all do that? What’s the point of official documents if they can’t be relied upon to be factual? Shall we throw all caution to the wind and allow people to write in whatever age they want, their spirit animal in place of Sex, and their zodiac sign for Place of Birth.

It’s not f**king hard. If you’re asked for your sex, you write it in. It’s just that - a factual answer. It doesn’t demand anything of you.Being of a particular sex doesn’t demand you dress/act in certain ways, and if someone thinks it does then they need to get out more and mix with people in the real world.

Did he just say that it is gender identity recorded on a passport though recorded under the “old fashioned term” sex? Or did I misinterpret what he was saying?

The majority of passports are based on original birth certificates that record sex as observed at birth.
An unknown number of people have secured a form from a doctor to state that they will be living in a 'gender [identity]' as if they were the opposite sex. The passport authority asks for 'gender' eg female/male on the online renewal form however it records the data as sex on the passport. It is not however asking for gender identity as if it were there would be upwards of fifty options available as demonstrated by BBC, www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9179703/BBC-programme-tells-9-year-olds-100-genders.html or Facebook, www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/10930654/Facebooks-71-gender-options-come-to-UK-users.html

The majority of people in the UK understand sex and gender to be synonymous. Sex is a relevant and provable fact, along with place and date of birth.

He didn’t say gender though he said gender identity. Also that the term sex is old fashioned.

Gender and gender identity are conflated along with sex.

I feel very pissed off at the idea that some people might be allowed to, basically, lie on their passport. Why can’t we all do that?

Well, presumably we all could? Are they demanding this be limited in any way? Surely they're demanding no "gatekeeping", as ever?

If they're going to stop asking for sex, I shall certainly stop giving my sex...

Recent thread (from page 2 onwards) discussed the serious potential Safeguarding/ Child protection implications of various loopholes which enable registered sexual offenders to hide their convictions, including passports:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4208155-The-Times-Law-section-Thursday-1st-April-Trans-judge-wants-a-more-diverse-judiciary?pg=2

@NecessaryScene actually, apart from this aspect - we cannot. We have to send in references and supporting documentation for everything else.

there's no way my GP would sign off on my passport if I said I was 75 rather than 25. Pension would be nice and all that.