Non Binary passport appeal on Mon

[Imnobody4]

Hadn't heard anything about this. Fingers crossed it goes the right way.

12th July an important appeal will be heard at the Supreme Court. A claimant called Mx Elan-Cane claims a non-binary identity and wants an X on their passport instead of Female. Elan-Cane argues this is a breach of their human rights. The UK government claims any such breach is justified because retaining the sex binary is important.

fairplayforwomen.com/non-binary-the-new-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing/

Women and children are not protected when men's sex is concealed.

Removing this option, but allowing them to self-id as "x", gives them what they want, ie: to not be a man, while still protecting single sex spaces for women and girls.

It doesn't give many of them what they want, no, because it isn't about just not being a man.

If the Supreme Court rules that X should be allowed on passports, the defence say the criteria for applying X hasn't been determined and would need to be, regardless of what the appellant says (they say no issues), it will impact on other areas and there will be consequences both for trans/non-binary and women, which at this time, are unknown. Do you have areas you feel will be impacted?

I feel that the lawyers taking this case have a hidden (well, not so) agenda, but it is possible this could backfire. However, if the Court finds for the appellant, do we guess at a slurry of cases and a big lobbying action to get self i-d

I think the suggestion that trans come under X is an interesting one and would impact that group because their aim is to become the sex they transition to. Third spaces would definitely have to be considered. Birth certificates would have to be amended. Any laws regarding sex would have to include X (however defined). What terminology would be used for X, just non-binary? If a person put X on their passport this time, could they change next time, or would this be irreversible? Job applications. The EA10. SO much stuff

When will the ruling happen (and can they say ‘look, person, give it a bloody rest - if you don’t like what it says on your passport... DONT LOOK’)?

If we stopped including sex (or gender) on passports at all, what do you think would be the harm? Are people ever asked to produce their passport to prove their sex/gender to anyone?

Why even bother having name or date of birth? Or a photo (who look like their photos anyway)?. Why bother at all...

@Helen8220 that's not what's being asked for here though. This case is about allowing some people to choose to have an X in the category of sex rather than M/F. Based on their own feelings about their sex.

If it was about removing the category of sex altogether then that's a whole different set of discussion points.

@AssassinatedBeauty that’s true, but I’m interested in that wider discussion, and thought people might have views. It feels like many of the objections raised in this thread to allowing a non-binary option on passports would be relevant to removing sex/gender from passports altogether

It’s not the lack of the description - it’s some people’s desperation to have ‘the right’ descriptor on the passport.

Their ‘truth’ isn’t necessarily everyone else’s.

[quote Helen8220]@AssassinatedBeauty that’s true, but I’m interested in that wider discussion, and thought people might have views. It feels like many of the objections raised in this thread to allowing a non-binary option on passports would be relevant to removing sex/gender from passports altogether[/quote]
Passports are identification documents primarily used to identify people when travelling internationally. If you want to argue for removing the sex marker from passports you need to think about why it's there in the first place and if it would aid identification of individuals by its removal.

But I don't think that's what this person wants. This individual wants to be recognised as a person with no sex.

[quote Helen8220]@AssassinatedBeauty that’s true, but I’m interested in that wider discussion, and thought people might have views. It feels like many of the objections raised in this thread to allowing a non-binary option on passports would be relevant to removing sex/gender from passports altogether[/quote]
We don't live in a world that is free of oppression on the basis of sex class. There are regular euphemistic warnings for some areas.

We need data to see who is given intimate searches. You might recall the early reports of women who complained of being groped by TSA workers and its contractor checkpoint staff during security checks. There have been complaints relatively recently from men about the invasiveness of some enhanced levels of search (both physical and virtual imaging).

We need to know if some demographics of people are disproportionately in danger when travelling in some countries. Who is targeted for some restrictive activities and who isn't?

Yes - the externalities recorded on a passport are those that were considered immutable to change and suited therefore to validation by an 'approved professional who could attest to them' and something feasible to eyeball by border staff.

There has been some recent coverage of the loophole of changing name/sex to evade linkage to a history of sexual offences. I'd be concerned that some men who are on a watchlist for CSA in other countries find it easier to abuse any loopholes.

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jan/09/tougher-travel-bans-should-be-imposed-on-uk-sex-offenders

If, as a global community, we move to biometric passports, they're feasibly going to be considerably more intrusive.

@EmbarrassingAdmissions before concluding that it was necessary to include sex on passports I’d want to know to what extent the sex stated on a person’s passport is relied on as a source of data, and for precisely what purposes the data is needed.

If sex wasn’t included on passports at all then I can’t see how that would make it easier for a person to evade being identified as someone with a history of offending.