Non Binary passport appeal on Mon

[Imnobody4]

Hadn't heard anything about this. Fingers crossed it goes the right way.

12th July an important appeal will be heard at the Supreme Court. A claimant called Mx Elan-Cane claims a non-binary identity and wants an X on their passport instead of Female. Elan-Cane argues this is a breach of their human rights. The UK government claims any such breach is justified because retaining the sex binary is important.

fairplayforwomen.com/non-binary-the-new-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing/

Please tell me this is a dream and I will wake up soon and things will be normal again :/

This person and the Moon person are both just cool girls really aren't they? Just the ultimate 'not like the other girls'.

Elan-Cane has been doing this for 30 years. What a bloody waste of a life.

I was wondering what law they think gives them the human right to put made up bollocks on their passport - Article 8 and 14 of the European Convention on Human Rights, apparently. Right to privacy and family life, and freedom from discrimination.

I hope it’s as much of a ridiculous overreach as it sounds. In the hypothetical case of a perfectly passing “binary” trans person, okay, I can see arguments. I still don’t agree with the arguments in that case, but it makes rudimentary sense.

But I think it’s more than silly to argue that putting an X on someone’s passport is going to protect them from discrimination. And I don’t think that the right to privacy includes the right to not have anyone know what sex you are, especially when it’s bloody obvious anyway.

(I wouldn’t have a problem with creating a third legal sex if X people were legally lumped in with men, but we all know they wouldn’t be.)

Let's say this happens, as it has in other countries, what do you about passports for children.

Say a newborn is born on holiday and needs a passport before travelling, or you child is 8 and you're going abroad for the first time, what do you put on the passport application? would a parent be able to put an X on behalf of the child because the parent is into all this and doesn't 'assign gender' to their child.

For example this family

Or this couple, going on a family holiday.

Well I guess there wouldn’t be travelling to Dubai...

OhHolyJesus point, when followed more, shows it's not just an individual's choice, but can have far reaching impact on children and family connections. It will have a push on birth certificates as well. I think a child deserves to know their biological parents, which sex belongs to which parent. Who is mother and father.

A lot of people are uncomfortable when they can't accurately sex others, it's such an instinctive immediate judgement made about anyone you don't know, in women especially for safety reasons. I'm much better at sexing people at a glance than my DH is.

We once attended a cooking demonstration with two other couples where the chef was Thai, and we couldn't decide whether chef was he or she. I didn't matter a scrap in that scenario, the cooking lesson was great, but all six people wanted to know and spent too long trying to decide on the sex of the chef. We were all uncomfortable because we didn't know and couldn't tell. This has nothing to do with anything trans- or non-binary related, just a demonstration that humans like to know what's what, even when it doesn't matter to safety, privacy or dignity.

I'm late fifties.
I'm trying really hard to stay on top of all of these issues but I'm going to admit that I'm starting to get flummoxed after reading threads like this.

I just don't know anymore.

If your identity is neither male or female, which is, I believe what Elan Kane is claiming, great - knock yourself out. But a passport has Sex on not Gender and is a factual document.

If we allow someone to put their identity on it instead of factual information, why shouldn’t I be able to choose what age my passport shows? I’d also like a more exotic place of birth.

Reality is always there. You can’t stop other people seeing it.

@DroopyClematis

I'm late fifties. I'm trying really hard to stay on top of all of these issues but I'm going to admit that I'm starting to get flummoxed after reading threads like this.

I just don't know anymore.

I’d try and stay ignorant of it if I were you. It’ll fry your noodle / depress you utterly!

Who actually goes about thinking ‘hmmmm my sex is female and I identify as female’?

Reality is always there. You can’t stop other people seeing it

well yes. even if the world goes mad and this happens, 'non binary' individuals will still be male or female

the whole thing is just so fucking pointless

@Clymene

This person and the Moon person are both just cool girls really aren't they? Just the ultimate 'not like the other girls'.

Elan-Cane has been doing this for 30 years. What a bloody waste of a life.

They say their profession is activist. Well I hope someone is paying them a proper wage for it or they have a substantial private income.

I can’t understand why authorities would even consider tampering with Identity documents and medical records. If this person has X, can I have A or a number or an emoji? What does this mean for doctors who have to treat x people or passport control who have to recognise that you match that document?

We’ve had 10 years of austerity followed by a blackhole of covid 19 crisis debt and we’re following this through the courts with public money.

If this person has X, can I have A or a number or an emoji?

Probably not. The ICAO international standard for machine-readable passports specifies that the Sex field has three valid values, M, F, and X, where X means Not Specified.

There was a bloke who went to great lengths to present as a lizard. He was in the US, had lots of surgery and tattoos and piercings. He eventually looked very striking, but, he wasn't what he believed he wanted to be.

There was a UK based woman who believed she was a cat. Similar issue but with fewer permanent adaptations but a big old tail that attached, I expect, in the usual manner.

Neither of these people were what they genuinely wanted to be. And I have sympathy for that. However, reality persists.

Life is happier if you recognise that (in my case) I am not 6'4" tall but some inches are mysteriously invisible to others, I am just short and fat. Yes, if I was tall I'd be the right weight for my height, yes I'd love to wear flowing bias cut chiffon, but, I can't. Well, I could, but I'd look fucking ridiculous. It's better to accept that than to persuade the whole world that I belong at London Fashion Week, modelling some sample on one calf that I lump down the cat walk.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Passports ate used fir ID.

How are pubs etc meant to prove they are following the law by not only asking fir ID but checking that ID matches what's in front of you . Police and internal agencies send people round ti test all thr time. You can lose your job for serving someone who's old enough hut under the "Think 25" aspect. So serving a 24 yr old could cost you your job of you didn't ask.

How does this tally witg legal requirements in pubs and casinos

It's interesting you say that. Just last year, someone went to the papers when a bartender didn't dare accept a passport as proof of ID, because the customer's appearance had changed so much since the passport was issued.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-54026453

I remember that case.

IDing is taken very seriously. You actually now have to physically prove you are doing it. There are large personal.fines and the threat of disciplinaries etc.

It can be hard enough as it is when you are looking at a photo that's several years old or the person has gained/lost weight, grown a beard etc

To add the ability to borrow your sisters ID and claim a trans ID ( so not accusing trans people of lying but it opens the opportunity for others to present fraudulent ID)

We are meant to make it harder to get served /commit fraud etc not easier.

As someone who has to regularly ID people I can tell you I don't give a crap what the ID says. It's not a value judgement . I dont giggle or take the piss if its a provisional as opposed to a full.license. i dont yell the details across the room.fir a laugh.

I literally do not take any notice beyond checking the picture matches the person, it's an approved form of ID and obviously the birth date.

Its having tickets on yourself again isnt it. Thinking people care beyond just doing their job.

You are forgotten straight after.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Reality is always there. You can’t stop other people seeing it

well yes. even if the world goes mad and this happens, 'non binary' individuals will still be male or female

the whole thing is just so fucking pointless

Agreed. Someone on another thread recently talked about their 'non-binary' friend giving birth.

I pointed out that her friend may have been non-binary, but that they were certainly an adult human female. She got annoyed with me, but it is just a fact of life.

Facts don't care about your feelings, as the phrase goes...

well yes. even if the world goes mad and this happens, 'non binary' individuals will still be male or female…..the whole thing is just so fucking pointless

What’s sad is that by making this such a focus, Elan Kane only emphasises their actual sex. The same with people who declare themselves non-binary. That declaration starts an automatic assessment/confirmation of their Sex whereas it wouldn’t have been at the forefront of our minds if they hadn’t mentioned it.

It’s the Identity Ideology equivalent of saying “Don’t think of an elephant”.

'That declaration starts an automatic assessment/confirmation of their Sex whereas it wouldn’t have been at the forefront of our minds if they hadn’t mentioned it'

I was recently in a coffee shop and a young person, maybe 13 yo or so, came in with who I took to be mother. Young person was wearing more makeup than I've ever seen on someone of that age before. I immediately realised here was boy wanting to be a girl. I wouldn't have noticed this person if it hadn't been for the makeup.

The case is being live streamed starting at 11.00. according to per's twitter feed.
www.supremecourt.uk/live/court-01.html

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1414505420572475393?s=19

Fair Play for Women are also live tweeting.

[quote Imnobody4]The case is being live streamed starting at 11.00. according to per's twitter feed.
www.supremecourt.uk/live/court-01.html[/quote]
Brill, thanks for this I was just looking to see what time the hearing was due to start as I couldn't see a specific time on Twitter.

So who will be giving evidence if there are no interveners allowed?