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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Non Binary passport appeal on Mon

188 replies

Imnobody4 · 11/07/2021 10:30

Hadn't heard anything about this. Fingers crossed it goes the right way.

12th July an important appeal will be heard at the Supreme Court. A claimant called Mx Elan-Cane claims a non-binary identity and wants an X on their passport instead of Female. Elan-Cane argues this is a breach of their human rights. The UK government claims any such breach is justified because retaining the sex binary is important.

fairplayforwomen.com/non-binary-the-new-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing/

OP posts:
toffeebutterpopcorn · 11/07/2021 10:32

Again?

Imnobody4 · 11/07/2021 10:34

This case presents a real and immediate threat to the system that underpins women’s sex-based rights. As such, Fair Play For Women took action and sought permission to intervene as an expert witness explaining why this case is central to protection of women’s rights under the law. You are read our full submissionhere. We were not the only ones, but we were the only ones speaking up for women’s rights. A long list of trans pressure groups had also sought permission to intervene: Stonewall, Gendered Intelligence, ILGA-Europe, Transgender Europe and Organisation Intersex. The court decided to reject all new interventions and has declined it was best not to accept evidence from any of us.

We are disappointed not to have the chance to present more evidence to the Supreme Court. But the fact that a women’s rights group showed up counts. The Supreme Court is now aware there are two sides to this story, and Stonewall and co did not manage to slip in unnoticed. It also sends a message loud and clear to the big trans organisations; women are stepping up. Imagine their shock when they learnt that Fair Play For Women had organised to intervene at the Supreme Court. The days of trans-activist getting the room to themselves are over. Women are watching and we are ready and able to take action.

This case isn’t really about an individual’s right to present in an androgynous manner. It’s about creating a semi-legal route to the removal of the two sex classes from law. That’s why so many trans activist groups wanted to intervene. It’s trying to reshape how society operates. It’s about breaking the sex binary, and ultimately erasing sex altogether.

OP posts:
FemaleAndLearning · 11/07/2021 10:40

This is the thing with non binary are people saying they have no sex? The passport records sex you have to be one or the other. Very self indulgent.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 11/07/2021 10:44

I thought this was knocked into touch a while ago? Why has it resurrected? Why should the wants of a tiny minority of people trump common sense?

PennineSpring · 11/07/2021 10:46

This case does cut to the crux of the matter - are we as a society required legally to pretend someone is not what our eyes see them as.
The GRA has shown what a legal mess is created when there are legal fictions at play and the census debacle highlighted the issues with literally anyone being able to change the sex marker on their password seemingly very easily.
Our passports, driver licences, police reports etc must represent reality and if that means using a sex marker and gender identity marker, then let’s push that that.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 11/07/2021 10:54

It's a strategy game to some people - and I can see why people who don't understand consider this to be scarcely worth raising an eyebrow as it seems like a straightforward #BeKind #WheresTheHarm?

This is why women have to show up for the Boring But Important. This is not a standalone action, it's repeated actions of attrition to undermine the status of sex classes irrespective of the many harms that will flow from that.

OldCrone · 11/07/2021 13:03

This is why women have to show up for the Boring But Important. This is not a standalone action, it's repeated actions of attrition to undermine the status of sex classes irrespective of the many harms that will flow from that.

And yet this action is being brought by a female person.

Just like the person behind the memorandum of understanding on conversion therapy who is keen to make sure that children who identify as transgender are given experimental and irreversible medical treatment.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4293723-Professionals-Assured-Under-18s-protection-from-irreversible-decisions

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 11/07/2021 13:13

I think many of these actions are being brought by woman who are being used as Trojan horses. Women are soft and kind and nice and it’s much easier to say yes to a woman than to a man...how could what she’s doing be threatening? But behind these women are legions of entitled men.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 11/07/2021 13:24

@WorkingItOutAsIGo

I think many of these actions are being brought by woman who are being used as Trojan horses. Women are soft and kind and nice and it’s much easier to say yes to a woman than to a man...how could what she’s doing be threatening? But behind these women are legions of entitled men.
The Jordan Petersen, Heather Heyling clip about toxic femininity as a strategy (part of a Triggernometry interview) is tangentially thought provoking on this topic ( NecessaryScene mentioned it elsewhere) :

Moving beyond that, I think these women are probably so pro-social that they can't intellectually (?) emotionally (?) or democratically (?) accept the idea of the inevitable consequences and harms that will flow from this. It's as if the realisation of the harms of the anomalies of GRA 2004, EqA 2010 and what's happened to women's rights are somehow invisible to them.

If it's none of the above, then I'm back to wondering about themes in Arendt's discussion of the origins of totalitarianism.

"Simone Weil wrote that “to be rooted is perhaps the most important and least recognized need of the human soul.” The modern condition of rootlessness is a foundational experience of totalitarianism; totalitarian movements succeed when they offer rootless people what they most crave: an ideologically consistent world aiming at grand narratives that give meaning to their lives. By consistently repeating a few key ideas, a manipulative leader provides a sense of rootedness grounded upon a coherent fiction that is “consistent, comprehensible, and predictable.”

The reason fact-checking is ineffective today — at least in convincing those who are members of movements — is that the mobilized members of a movement are confounded by a world resistant to their wishes and prefer the promise of a consistent alternate world to reality. When Donald Trump says he’s going to build a wall to protect our borders, he is not making a factual statement that an actual wall will actually protect our borders; he is signaling a politically incorrect willingness to put America first. When he says that there was massive voter fraud or boasts about the size of his inauguration crowd, he is not speaking about actual facts, but is insisting that his election was legitimate. “What convinces masses are not facts, and not even invented facts, but only the consistency of the system of which they are presumably part.”

Leaders of these mass totalitarian movements do not need to believe in the truth of their lies and ideological clichés. The point of their fabrications is not to establish facts, but to create a coherent fictional reality. What a movement demands of its leaders is the articulation of a consistent narrative combined with the ability to abolish the capacity for distinguishing between truth and falsehood, between reality and fiction."

lareviewofbooks.org/article/arendt-matters-revisiting-origins-totalitarianism/

OldCrone · 11/07/2021 13:29

I think that's almost certainly true WorkingItOutAsIGo. I don't think these particular female people are 'soft and kind and nice' (and I don't think that's what you meant), but that's how women are perceived, and a female person bringing this case allows the men in the background to say 'look, this isn't a men's rights movement'.

Datun · 11/07/2021 13:33

@OldCrone

I think that's almost certainly true WorkingItOutAsIGo. I don't think these particular female people are 'soft and kind and nice' (and I don't think that's what you meant), but that's how women are perceived, and a female person bringing this case allows the men in the background to say 'look, this isn't a men's rights movement'.
Absolutely.

It's driven by men using women as a cover.

It's all in the Denton report, isn't it. And, every time there is a protest, they call on 'cis women' to front it.

A man trying to disguise his sex looks a lot more dodgy than a woman doing it.

Whatwouldscullydo · 11/07/2021 13:39

Passports ate used fir ID.

How are pubs etc meant to prove they are following the law by not only asking fir ID but checking that ID matches what's in front of you . Police and internal agencies send people round ti test all thr time. You can lose your job for serving someone who's old enough hut under the "Think 25" aspect. So serving a 24 yr old could cost you your job of you didn't ask.

How does this tally witg legal requirements in pubs and casinos

toffeebutterpopcorn · 11/07/2021 17:01

What about countries who don’t go in for this?

So your passport and hiking boots are found next to a burping bear in the mountains... what do the police do?
‘A person, 25, is missing. Presumed eaten by bear. All identifying marks and characteristics ‘prefer not to say’

Leafstamp · 11/07/2021 17:07

@toffeebutterpopcorn

What about countries who don’t go in for this?

So your passport and hiking boots are found next to a burping bear in the mountains... what do the police do?
‘A person, 25, is missing. Presumed eaten by bear. All identifying marks and characteristics ‘prefer not to say’

I agree with FPFW that introducing an ‘X’ marker for sex would be yet another thing to undermine sex based rights. But the bear thing is also a really good practical reason why it’s a bad idea!
Nachthex · 11/07/2021 17:39

Hi. I used to be here, left and have now returned (new name). In the interim, I have been reading and I hope keeping up with it all.

Although we increasingly use passports as ID (I'm in the UK where we don't have ID documents in the same way other countries do) their basic purpose is surely as a travel document. I've travelled a fair bit & out of Europe too - I'm sure immigration officials in many countries would be totally perplexed by an 'X' in the sex box of a passport. I can imagine some wouldn't treat the bearer of such a document in a particularly kind and sympathetic manner. I can't help feeling a victory for the NBs in this would be a bit of an own-goal.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 11/07/2021 17:52

So you have an X. Who pats you down? They see a bulge in the crotch of your trousers - what’s that then? You have two bulges on your chest - boobs or contraband? Again - who pats you down?

HidingFromTheChildren · 11/07/2021 17:57

None binary = made up

McPancreas · 11/07/2021 18:03

Do gender fluid people get as many passport as they need to ensure thier validity at all times?

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 11/07/2021 18:09

@McPancreas

Do gender fluid people get as many passport as they need to ensure thier validity at all times?
That was a serious proposal made about workplace security passes recently, iirc.

One wonders might happen in the course of long-haul journeys.

Blibbyblobby · 11/07/2021 18:20

This is why we need to entirely separate sex as a physical descriptor of the body from gender as a social identity. Then the genderists can get on with fine tuning the one million flavours of gender identity until it fully actualises the breadth of human personality, and the rest of us can get on with dealing with the practicalities of sexed bodies in a structurally patriarchal society.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 11/07/2021 18:23

Tell you what. We just have sex and have no reference to gender (or have Gender: X for everyone). Problem solved.

viques · 11/07/2021 18:25

@Nachthex

Hi. I used to be here, left and have now returned (new name). In the interim, I have been reading and I hope keeping up with it all.

Although we increasingly use passports as ID (I'm in the UK where we don't have ID documents in the same way other countries do) their basic purpose is surely as a travel document. I've travelled a fair bit & out of Europe too - I'm sure immigration officials in many countries would be totally perplexed by an 'X' in the sex box of a passport. I can imagine some wouldn't treat the bearer of such a document in a particularly kind and sympathetic manner. I can't help feeling a victory for the NBs in this would be a bit of an own-goal.

Actually a lot of countries have allowed a non gendered entry on passports, including countries like India and Pakistan where I think most people would assume are countries where identity is very much caught up in sexual identity.
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 11/07/2021 18:26

That was a serious proposal made about workplace security passes recently, iirc.

Not just a proposal...

"A Scotland Yard police officer has become Britain's first gender-fluid cop and is carrying two ID cards, in the name of Abi and Callum"
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4533014/Scotland-Yard-officer-Britain-s-gender-fluid-cop.html

viques · 11/07/2021 18:26

@toffeebutterpopcorn

Tell you what. We just have sex and have no reference to gender (or have Gender: X for everyone). Problem solved.
That’s ok, but I would like my identity to be marked as XX if that’s ok with everyone. It’s a personal thing.
TheDinosaurMum · 11/07/2021 18:30

But it's an official document required for travel. That matches your birth certificate for official purposes.

Your passport isn't just to travel, it's a document that allows other countries to correctly identify you in worse case scenarios also.

So if said non binary person was sadly murdered the local police would need to be able to identify them. Nobody is recorded on a death or birth certificate as X.

I mean they could hardly contact the British Embassy and say we've got a dead body, sex X. Nobody cares what you identified as once you are dead 🤦🏻‍♀️ they can't ask you your gender preference. So biological sex is what they go off.

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