A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

@Kona84

My brother used to attend girl guides with me because there wasn’t a local scouts. He didn’t stay a member for long as he decided he didn’t want to be part of the girls club - we then moved too so both left after a few months. I thought no the scouts and girl guides were mixed gender

You thought the girl guides were mixed?

Your brother was not a member of Girl Guiding. He may have tagged along, but he was not a member.

By the way if this person is in role 2 they could be up to 14, unless this is a joint Guide/Ranger group in which case it's up to 18.
I believe your daughter that this person is male but an older boy with a low voice could be 13/14 or 19/20 if she's only 10.

just because they may be trans doesn't automatically make them a wrong one. Some of the girls may be worse to be fair
No one has suggested that this (unconfirmed) natal male girl guide is a wrong'un, at least not that I have seen. That is not the point; the point is that without transparency, parents are unable to make an informed risk assessment about activities their daughters are attending.

Care to elaborate on what was meant by some of the girls possibly being 'worse', Looneytune?

@KatieAlcock

It is also unlikely but possible that he's 7. a son of a Guider who couldn't get home otherwise/can't be left alone. If that's the case then he won't be on any residentials.

My son comes on residentials with me. He's much younger though.
He shares my tent/room.

just because they may be trans doesn't automatically make them a wrong one. Some of the girls may be worse to be fair

What do you mean?

@Looneytune253

My daughter goes to guides and they have short hair and is exploring the idea of they/them pronouns ready for high school. This child might be a girl or a trans girl. Not sure what the official stance is with girl guiding but I think they're welcome still. They're always supervised anyway but just because they may be trans doesn't automatically make them a wrong one. Some of the girls may be worse to be fair

After initially deciding that transboys were NOT welcome and neither were female nonbinary adults, GG has decided to admit both groups. Leaders who identify as transmen even if they've made no medical or legal changes are out on their ear.

You are aware though that girls however "wrong" cannot get other girls pregnant? And that GG leaders have advice on how to discuss the use of condoms with girls on mixed sex camps (though if they don't know their girls are on a mixed sex camp, they can't do this)? Would you not be interested in knowing whether your daughter was on a mixed sex camp by stealth? And sharing a tent with a male child?

[quote Reachersloveinterest]@KatieAlcock

It is also unlikely but possible that he's 7. a son of a Guider who couldn't get home otherwise/can't be left alone. If that's the case then he won't be on any residentials.

My son comes on residentials with me. He's much younger though.
He shares my tent/room.

[/quote]
I hope your DC doesn't know as even babes in arms aren't supposed to share with female leaders if the babes are male. Nor men married to the female leader.

@Looneytune253

My daughter goes to guides and they have short hair and is exploring the idea of they/them pronouns ready for high school. This child might be a girl or a trans girl. Not sure what the official stance is with girl guiding but I think they're welcome still. They're always supervised anyway but just because they may be trans doesn't automatically make them a wrong one. Some of the girls may be worse to be fair

My son isn't a "wrong one" as you put it. He's an absolute little gentleman, lovely and gentle. Why is it, then, that when I take my DD on a GG residential, I cannot let my lovely son share a tent with his sister and her fellow guides. Nor can I share a tent with my son?

We have several fantastic male volunteers, brilliant and kind and I would trust them implicitly. They cannot share facilities or sleeping accommodation with me or the girls. They can't become a Leader. Nor would I want them to.

Why do you think safeguarding is in place? Do you think it's about branding every man as a "wrong one"?

Some of the girls may be worse to be fair

Worse at what?

@NotBadConsidering if you’d gone on to read my other post before commenting you would understand why I asked why so bothered.

To me, guides was just activities. We sometimes went on camps with the scouts. There were no showers, no dressing together, not sharing tents. We shared a big community hall on occasions on little camp beds. So to me, a male being in there would not have mattered as men and boys were also sometimes around but kayaking with a male in a separate kayak on the water is not really any kind of risk, however another poster has informed me that this is not the case. I was a guide years ago, maybe it’s different now or maybe my group just didn’t do these things.

@KatieAlcock my DC is aware, my DS has camped with us since has a baby. If he didn't, we wouldn't camp.
To be honest though, I have been worrying how we would manage as he gets older. I was told when he was about 4 and on a big camp that if he was over 7, he would have to sleep on the males/staff field. I can't send a 7 year old to sleep on a separate field on his own, surrounded by adults he doesn't know. I can't move with him, I need to stay with the Guides. Guess it means my Guides won't be camping again.

and is exploring the idea of they/them pronouns ready for high school.

What does that mean? "Ready for high school"?

Worse at what?

They aren't going to be making any other girls pregnant and they have a 1/50th the chance of being an abuser. So that's a very good question.

Yes, considering this in in Feminism, there seem to be a lot of posts along the lines 'MYOB you narrow minded cis woman you'.

My friends son has always attended, she's been involved ever since a brownie herself, now very senior, her son came with her from a baby due to childcare issues and nobody batted an eyelid, he wanted to stay on once older so he's down as her son not a member. On residentials he's in her tent!

He's now 17 and officially a volunteer

If girls can join the Scouts, then surely there's nothing preventing boys from joining the Guides if they want to.

@KatieAlcock, I am waiting with baited breath for the first Jamboree pregnancy. I can't believe that the former head of Family Planning UK is the person that oversaw Stonewall getting their rotten hooks into Girl Guiding policy.

It's not just the danger to the girls, although that is my primary concern by a long way. These confused boys are being told absolute crap about themselves, believing all sorts of bullshit about their "feelings" having some corresponding affect on their anatomy. How many "lesbian identifying trans girls" believe that they can't get a girl pregnant because they themselves are female? indeed, how many girls are being fed this crap on TikTok and the like, believing that sex with a trans girl cannot result in pregnancy.

There doesn't have to be rape or violence involved to put children in danger and to change their lives forever. A biological boy and a biological girl, believing themselves to both be girls in a loving and healthy sexual relationship, may end up in a situation of a teenage or even pre-teen pregnancy. All facilitated by GGUK.

@ahoyshipmates boys are not allowed to him guides, it's a separate organisation to Scouting so have different rules

@motogogo

My friends son has always attended, she's been involved ever since a brownie herself, now very senior, her son came with her from a baby due to childcare issues and nobody batted an eyelid, he wanted to stay on once older so he's down as her son not a member. On residentials he's in her tent!

He's now 17 and officially a volunteer

So what? She's still breaking GGUK's safeguarding rules.

@TedImgoingmad I fear the first Jamboree pregnancy has already happened as Jamborees have been mixed sex for quite some time... sorry to disappoint!

It doesn't sound like an issue to me. There were girls in my son's Cubs pack

Except that mixed-sex organisations have the proper safeguarding rules in place. The problem with an organisation like the Guides is that it is pretending to be single sex and therefore does not have proper safeguarding rules for mixed sex activities.

[quote LittleNibbler]@NotBadConsidering if you’d gone on to read my other post before commenting you would understand why I asked why so bothered.

To me, guides was just activities. We sometimes went on camps with the scouts. There were no showers, no dressing together, not sharing tents. We shared a big community hall on occasions on little camp beds. So to me, a male being in there would not have mattered as men and boys were also sometimes around but kayaking with a male in a separate kayak on the water is not really any kind of risk, however another poster has informed me that this is not the case. I was a guide years ago, maybe it’s different now or maybe my group just didn’t do these things.[/quote]
And if you’d read my post, you would see that to me and many parents, even if it is “just activities” I still have a right to know who is attending. It doesn’t matter if males wouldn’t have bothered you. What matters is that everyone is informed as to who is there, and what that involves. You have no idea whether the guide activities you did with males around actually impacted a girls who weren’t you. Maybe on the days you did things with scouts, some girls stayed at home because they didn’t want to do things with boys around. Maybe some girls quit or didn’t join your guides because activities were done with boys. Did you ever consider that?

It doesn’t matter how innocent it may be. I want to know who is present with my children when I am not so I can make a risk assessment. We do it all the time. I let my children go to school because I know they will be safe. I let my children go to sleepovers to places I know they will be safe and I know who will be there. If the dynamics change: maybe there is a child who presents a danger to my child, or a teacher, or the parents etc, I can only change my risk assessment if I am told.

History is littered with safeguarding failures where the parents were never told what was going on. I don’t care how innocent the activities are, I care about how little regard is shown to me, my children and the approach to safeguarding if I am not told information by organisations.

@SpongeBobJudgeyPants

Yes, considering this in in Feminism, there seem to be a lot of posts along the lines 'MYOB you narrow minded cis woman you'.

I'm waiting for the "your daughter shouldn't be staring at that poor transgirl's genitals in her tent, you bad parent you".

Yes, we seem to have a whole lot of people who aren't feminists on the feminism board, don't we? Could it possibly be a result of splitting us off gender issues from the rest of feminism, so that the pro-trans lobby don't have to read so many threads and work out which ones they want to target?

@NotBadConsidering I don’t know why you keep typing stuff in bold as though that makes your point any more important.

As I said, I asked why she was bothered, other pps have explained to me why. Move on.

Yes, we seem to have a whole lot of people who aren't feminists on the feminism board, don't we? Could it possibly be a result of splitting us off gender issues from the rest of feminism, so that the pro-trans lobby don't have to read so many threads and work out which ones they want to target?

As was predicted when this change was announced?