A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

I withdrew my daughter from guides because of this and won’t be sending my other to Brownies. It’s so sad because I have such happy memories of being a GG. I agree with other posters, kids are pretty clued in and if she says it’s a boy, then it probably is. Go and hang around at the beginning of the meeting and find out. I don’t agree with lying to my children by telling them boys can be girls so will not send them to an organisation which will lie to them.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yes, we seem to have a whole lot of people who aren't feminists on the feminism board, don't we? Could it possibly be a result of splitting us off gender issues from the rest of feminism, so that the pro-trans lobby don't have to read so many threads and work out which ones they want to target?

As was predicted when this change was announced?

Nope. As I said earlier, it's because this is on the trending list. Lots of us just click on interesting thread titles there, and there's no indication of which board they're on.

It's interesting that regulars on this board bristle when others enter their echo chamber though.
I've recently become GC, but still have a few queries and reservations that I'd like to discuss. But the feminism board is not somewhere I feel welcome or able to ask my remaining questions. And this is pretty much why. It's a bit of a closed shop, and anyone not toeing the party line 100% tends to get 'who are you and why are you here?'

Datun

I have done a bunch of child protection training and dealt with various scenarios in my private and professional life. I understand safeguarding and child protection and it’s complexities when applied to real life very well.
No need to make obnoxious presumptions just because I don’t agree with you

Op is starting a great fucking flap over a child she’s never even met who her child may well simply be confused about not everyone’s sex is as immediately obvious as you assume

10% of the population have some form of dsd. Those people exist and no parent of a guide has a right to know any medical history of any other guide. Even if they do think they look a bit masculine. I certainly did as a preteen until my boobs kicked in.
So flapping around stating you’ve a right to know makes your sound entitled and ridiculous.

No guide is expected to provide ‘proof’ they are female... whatever you imagine that might look like in this context, they certainly don’t have to provide it to op or any other parent that demands it.

Wether this kid is a trans girl or masculine presenting cis girl or some form of dsd, whatever it is not ok to start a witch hunt over them... how is that ever safeguarding?

@ahoyshipmates

If girls can join the Scouts, then surely there's nothing preventing boys from joining the Guides if they want to.

There is, Guides and Scouts are not the same organisation, Guides is still only for girls.

10% of the population have some form of dsd.

No, they don't, and of the 0.02% (not a misplaced decimal point) of individuals who do have a DSD, an even smaller percentage would have a masculine presenting voice and face and a lower, male voice in teenage years while being female.

10% of the population have a DSD? Are you quite sure about that. That's considerably higher than I've seen quoted before.

a great fucking flap

Wtf?

It could be a little girl with short hair or a girl that has a face like a boy. That’d be really great for a little girls self esteem to find out people doubt her sex because she’s not dainty or feminine enough 🙄

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yes, we seem to have a whole lot of people who aren't feminists on the feminism board, don't we? Could it possibly be a result of splitting us off gender issues from the rest of feminism, so that the pro-trans lobby don't have to read so many threads and work out which ones they want to target?

As was predicted when this change was announced?

Are you sure? I have no doubt all the same people are on Feminist Chat starting all the threads about the really important stuff they felt they couldn't start threads on before. Let's have a look....

@HerrenaHarridan

Datun

I have done a bunch of child protection training and dealt with various scenarios in my private and professional life. I understand safeguarding and child protection and it’s complexities when applied to real life very well.
No need to make obnoxious presumptions just because I don’t agree with you

Op is starting a great fucking flap over a child she’s never even met who her child may well simply be confused about not everyone’s sex is as immediately obvious as you assume

10% of the population have some form of dsd. Those people exist and no parent of a guide has a right to know any medical history of any other guide. Even if they do think they look a bit masculine. I certainly did as a preteen until my boobs kicked in.
So flapping around stating you’ve a right to know makes your sound entitled and ridiculous.

No guide is expected to provide ‘proof’ they are female... whatever you imagine that might look like in this context, they certainly don’t have to provide it to op or any other parent that demands it.

Wether this kid is a trans girl or masculine presenting cis girl or some form of dsd, whatever it is not ok to start a witch hunt over them... how is that ever safeguarding?

Asking for advice on a parenting form, isn't a witchhunt.

Disorders of sexual development have got nothing to do with trans people. And no, it isn't 10%.

This isn't about children looking masculine, or feminine. This is about a policy that tells girls they are not allowed to identify someone as the opposite sex.

If you have done safeguarding training, you must absolutely know that it's a red flag.

How are we supposed to help children describe csa, or harassment, or discomfort, if they are not given the language to describe it? And not only that, but tell them that the language which reflects reality is forbidden.

And then extend that censorship and compelled speech, to their own parents.

This isn't about an individual child. This is about a wholesale policy that erodes the boundaries of women and girls, and prevents them from talking about it.

@WithANameLikeDaniCalifornia

It could be a little girl with short hair or a girl that has a face like a boy. That’d be really great for a little girls self esteem to find out people doubt her sex because she’s not dainty or feminine enough 🙄

And yet the daughter has said the child/adult "was taller" and "had a deep voice".

@HerrenaHarridan

Good points. It's a tricky one.

I went to Brownies and Guides as a child. I looked like a boy, intentionally- I wanted to pass as a boy. I dressed like a boy and had short hair. I used to get a thrill of excitement when strangers, at a glance, mistook me for a boy. I'm now a heterosexual woman and not trans.

I think the panic is coming from the fact that at that time (1990s), there was no question that I was a girl. Because no one overstepped those boundaries. There was no precedent set for boys trying to join girls' clubs. The girls went to Guides and the boys joined the Boys Brigade.

Things are different now and parents are concerned. I understand why.

For what it's worth, I think a lot of damage has been done opening up girls' and boy's and women's and men's clubs to the opposite sex. I don't think there is any harm in having a mixture of sex-segregated groups and clubs, and mixed-sex clubs. Bizarrely it's now fine for women to have their own spaces but God forbid men have a male only golf club for example. I think this is unfair. We all appreciate spaces of our own from time to time. It shouldn't be policy across the board, of course. We're well past that. But I think people should be free to set up their own sex-segregated clubs and spaces if there's demand for it.

Girls like space of their own sometimes and so do boys. The same goes for men and women. I don't think this is regressive.

It's interesting that regulars on this board bristle when others enter their echo chamber though.

This board is a known target for trolling, both from TRAs and others (MRAs). It really isn't an echo chamber, but we do feel under siege and left in the cold sometimes.

Is there anything anyone can help you with, genuinely trying to assist?

@TedImgoingmad

I always love seeing your name pop up on a board. Great username.

It's interesting that regulars on this board bristle when others enter their echo chamber though.

I'm a regular, and I personally see it as an opportunity. Plus, it's brilliant that it's trending. The more people posting, the better.

@Datun

It's interesting that regulars on this board bristle when others enter their echo chamber though.

I'm a regular, and I personally see it as an opportunity. Plus, it's brilliant that it's trending. The more people posting, the better.

Couldn’t agree more Datun.

My dd cut all her hair off into a really short pixi, lots of people thought she was a boy, I remember waiting for her after brownies one day when another child said why is there a boy in there, her mother started going on about the whole trans thing, we’d had an email about it not long before, I never said a word just waited for her reaction when my dd came out and cuddled me.

I am not sure of the rules regarding this, it's a long time since my two were in the brownies and scouts etc. Maybe it doesn't matter about the old days rules now.Maybe your daughter and friends should speak to the mystery child, and see what they all come up with if they are confused.

[quote GromblesofGrimbledon]@HerrenaHarridan

Good points. It's a tricky one.

I went to Brownies and Guides as a child. I looked like a boy, intentionally- I wanted to pass as a boy. I dressed like a boy and had short hair. I used to get a thrill of excitement when strangers, at a glance, mistook me for a boy. I'm now a heterosexual woman and not trans.

I think the panic is coming from the fact that at that time (1990s), there was no question that I was a girl. Because no one overstepped those boundaries. There was no precedent set for boys trying to join girls' clubs. The girls went to Guides and the boys joined the Boys Brigade.

Things are different now and parents are concerned. I understand why.

For what it's worth, I think a lot of damage has been done opening up girls' and boy's and women's and men's clubs to the opposite sex. I don't think there is any harm in having a mixture of sex-segregated groups and clubs, and mixed-sex clubs. Bizarrely it's now fine for women to have their own spaces but God forbid men have a male only golf club for example. I think this is unfair. We all appreciate spaces of our own from time to time. It shouldn't be policy across the board, of course. We're well past that. But I think people should be free to set up their own sex-segregated clubs and spaces if there's demand for it.

Girls like space of their own sometimes and so do boys. The same goes for men and women. I don't think this is regressive. [/quote]
The thing about spaces for both sexes is that they're not symmetrical.

Golf clubs, the Masons, even pubs at one point, are places of power and decision-making. From which women were deliberately excluded.

Women's groups tend to be places of sanctuary. Not places where powerful decisions are made.

I don't think any feminists have problems with things like Men's Sheds. Or places for social interaction and shared interests.

It's when the deliberate exclusion of women happens, in order to prevent them being represented.

@Datun

It's interesting that regulars on this board bristle when others enter their echo chamber though.

I'm a regular, and I personally see it as an opportunity. Plus, it's brilliant that it's trending. The more people posting, the better.

I’m a regular lurker and I’ve learnt a lot from this board, however we are allowed to have different boundaries and they should be discussed, but some people can just shout you down and accuse you of not being a feminist or of supporting women, and that really drives me crazy. All our boundaries don’t have to be the same, these things are new and it’s about finding the answers together.

I'm a regular, and I personally see it as an opportunity. Plus, it's brilliant that it's trending. The more people posting, the better.

Yes, you are right.

I attended both GG, then Girl's Brigade in my youth. The GG residential were not at that time set up for individual privacy which might be needed for mixed gender. The Girls Brigade however always did mixed residential and had separate spaces for privacy.

I don't think that it is unreasonable for you to try to find out for sure and see whether safeguarding on residential trips has been considered.

Whether women's rights matter or not to many on this thread, the right of the transgirl certainly would matter and they would need to be protected from the other girls. Because oh yes, they are worse???????

I am sure with some adaptation residential trips could be safe for all.

@coffeeandjuice

Loads of girls go to Scouts and Cubs. You're not allowed to run exclusively "girl" or "boy" clubs anymore as it's discrimination. It probably is a boy.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

I’m a regular lurker and I’ve learnt a lot from this board, however we are allowed to have different boundaries and they should be discussed, but some people can just shout you down and accuse you of not being a feminist or of supporting women, and that really drives me crazy. All our boundaries don’t have to be the same, these things are new and it’s about finding the answers together.

I know Nibbler. But it's human to get frustrated. And the feminist boards are targeted by prats and misogynists, all the damn time.

And of course individuals have different boundaries.

But in terms of safeguarding, the one thing I've learnt, is that you take the worst case scenario possible, and operate on that basis.

If it all goes tits up, and someone asks you what you could have done better, you don't want to have to hesitate.

Safeguarding isn't about individual preference.

I tend to think that a ten year old girl can tell boys and girls apart. Come on. She could have made a mistake, but that's very unlikely. Especially as she was clear the child had long hair. This isn't a confused four year old who doesn't realise girls can have short hair!

It's quite possibly a boy who was only there because he was with a Brownie helper, though.