A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

@coffeeandjuice

Loads of girls go to Scouts and Cubs. You're not allowed to run exclusively "girl" or "boy" clubs anymore as it's discrimination. It probably is a boy.

Wrong.

”Natal female people lose opportunities to give natal male people more variety and choice over theirs, even though other mixed sex provisions were available to them.”
RedAppleWreath

Women’s worlds get smaller, men’s get bigger.

Why are you so bothered by this though?

I don’t understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. If I send any of my DDs to anywhere, I want to know who is there. If I send my DDs to a place that is only meant to have group A and instead it’s group A and B mixed together I would want to know why I was misled. For example if a party is for our school members only, but it turns out anyone from other schools can attend it changes the dynamic. I would want to know why and why I wasn’t informed.

At the pointy end of this, for the welfare of my DDs, if something is supposed to be single sex - female - and there is a male there this does two things. It changes the dynamic, which may negate the whole reason my DDs are attending in the first place; they want to be with just females. And second, it raises a safeguarding concern.

This is not a reflection on the nature, good or bad, of the male there. But it means my DDs might be placed in a situation where they are alone with a male they don’t know. The teachers/leaders might be placing children of both sexes in situations that may not be appropriate (without being nefarious), so the leaders need to know what they are going to do in that situation and be able to relay it to me. This protects everyone: my DDs, them, and the male.

But a lack of open communication of such a situation would lead me to think they haven’t even thought about such issues, don’t have safeguarding policy and/or would think I am not entitled to have any say about their approach to supervising my DDs. I will not be lied to or gaslit into thinking everything is fine in this scenario because experience tells me that these organisations do not place the feelings or welfare of mine or anyone else’s DDs at the forefront, but do the males.

It doesn’t matter how minor it is, how small a thing it is, how it may be perceived that the thing they’re doing in this mixed sex group doesn’t pose a threat as far as they can see, I still want to know.

If I could confidently think that the world has the back of my DDs to do what’s right, then maybe I wouldn’t be “so bothered” but it’s highly likely their needs will be put last.

And finally by getting worked up over what might be a small thing to some people I am setting an example to my DDs that if you’re promised something as a right, it’s taken away from you, and then people pretend it isn’t happening (“that’s not a boy, silly!”), then let’s stand together and make a fuss about it and not just accept it meekly and let these people get away with it.

So I imagine that’s why the OP is bothered.

Yes of course i see that. I don't for one moment think (and have certainly not suggested) that OP tell her daughter that she is wrong.

I also don't think she should assume that she is wrong.

I do think, and have stated, that there is more than one possible explanation, and that it makes no sense for anyone who has not met this child (OP included) to be coming to any particular conclusion or decision at this stage. Let the daughter get to know the other Guides and see what unfolds, if it is an issue.

Oh definitely, it's worth finding out. The problem is, asking may not produce any kind of useful information.

Yes, it's entirely possible that a short haired girl could be mistaken for a boy, by a child who is only glimpsing at external stereotypes.

Especially, in this day and age when short hair on girls seems to be fairly uncommon.

You may not be able to ask about the gender if this person from the leader but you certainly have a right to ask about toileting facilities. It they didn’t have single sex toilets for use by biological girls I’d be removing her.

@AlwaysLatte

I didn't realise that Guides and Scouts had different criteria, ie girls could join Scouts but boys couldn't join Guides. It does seem unfair.

I don't understand why it's unfair that Girl Guiding is a single sex organisation (or rather, as this thread makes abundantly clear, a single gender organisation) and Scouts isn't.

Girl Guiding and Scouts are not run by the government, they're voluntary organisations run by volunteers, and it's up to those who run them to set policy.

Those who think there should be a boys only organisation have the option to start one.

@2bazookas

I'd mind my own business.

When your daughter has been going there a little longer, no doubt she and you will be better informed.

Her daughter and what goes on at the clubs she pays for her to attend and whether they have safeguarding in place absolutely is her business.

@NotBadConsidering has it spot on

@MishyJDI - you appear to one of the dangerous people on the trans rights activists side who are suggesting that safeguarding somehow comes secondary to people's feelings?

@NotBadConsidering

Why are you so bothered by this though?

I don’t understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. If I send any of my DDs to anywhere, I want to know who is there. If I send my DDs to a place that is only meant to have group A and instead it’s group A and B mixed together I would want to know why I was misled. For example if a party is for our school members only, but it turns out anyone from other schools can attend it changes the dynamic. I would want to know why and why I wasn’t informed.

At the pointy end of this, for the welfare of my DDs, if something is supposed to be single sex - female - and there is a male there this does two things. It changes the dynamic, which may negate the whole reason my DDs are attending in the first place; they want to be with just females. And second, it raises a safeguarding concern.

This is not a reflection on the nature, good or bad, of the male there. But it means my DDs might be placed in a situation where they are alone with a male they don’t know. The teachers/leaders might be placing children of both sexes in situations that may not be appropriate (without being nefarious), so the leaders need to know what they are going to do in that situation and be able to relay it to me. This protects everyone: my DDs, them, and the male.

But a lack of open communication of such a situation would lead me to think they haven’t even thought about such issues, don’t have safeguarding policy and/or would think I am not entitled to have any say about their approach to supervising my DDs. I will not be lied to or gaslit into thinking everything is fine in this scenario because experience tells me that these organisations do not place the feelings or welfare of mine or anyone else’s DDs at the forefront, but do the males.

It doesn’t matter how minor it is, how small a thing it is, how it may be perceived that the thing they’re doing in this mixed sex group doesn’t pose a threat as far as they can see, I still want to know.

If I could confidently think that the world has the back of my DDs to do what’s right, then maybe I wouldn’t be “so bothered” but it’s highly likely their needs will be put last.

And finally by getting worked up over what might be a small thing to some people I am setting an example to my DDs that if you’re promised something as a right, it’s taken away from you, and then people pretend it isn’t happening (“that’s not a boy, silly!”), then let’s stand together and make a fuss about it and not just accept it meekly and let these people get away with it.

So I imagine that’s why the OP is bothered.

Excellent post.

Would people be happy being told they were sending their 10-year-old to a 10-year-old's party, only to find out after it was mixed age, and there were an equal bunch of 15 year olds there?

It's not judging individual 15-year-olds. It's being aware that the dynamic changes, as does the risk profile.

Parents need to assess the risk and make the decision. Not be unable to assess the risk, in order to not make an informed decision.

Don't @ me again, you're ridiculous, and flying off the handle about the existence of some poor kid nobody knows anything about strikes me as a lot more transphobic than pointing out a bit of maths and saying it doesn't really matter anyway

Seems to me its you thats flying off the handle. Quite the temper you have there. Quite happy to not engage with you any longer, at your request. Its not a particularly productive or meaningful exchange is it. It never is when people refuse to understand the meaning of safeguarding and what it involves.

Tibtom
Exactly what I was about to say.
How could it not be a parents responsibility and make it their business to know? Do the people saying it's none of your business even have kids? Or if they do, do you genuinely have no curiosity about the other people your child is around when you're not with them?

Fab post, NotBadConsidering. Puts all the first page 'so what, what's it got to do with you' responses into context.

@AuntyFungal

”Natal female people lose opportunities to give natal male people more variety and choice over theirs, even though other mixed sex provisions were available to them.” RedAppleWreath

Women’s worlds get smaller, men’s get bigger.

And women are berated, abused, chastised and patronised for pointing that fact out...

Yup, what NotBadConsidering says.

As a aren't you would definitely want to know, especially for residential, but the rules are that you can't and mustn't be told.

So the rights of one child identifying as a girl trump the rights of all the other children, all the parents and all the leaders.

I'm still looking for the example of a transboy or transman whose identity and rights are trumping those of whole groups of men and boys.

The Scouts just let the girls in without any fuss. Why don't the Guides do the reverse and just be open so the safeguarding can be done effectively?

Or it's about teaching your children tolerance and to celebrate difference....

Oh yes, im happy to teach my children tolerance and celebrate difference. Within the framework of safeguarding. If everyone could understand and recognise the importance of this then there wouldnt be a problem would there.

[quote LittleNibbler]@MrsFin eh? I was a guide we never had showers together or dressed together...we did activities together but I never saw anyone even semi-naked?[/quote]
I've been a Guide and Ranger leader for 20 years, and before that I was a Guide, Ranger and Brownie.

I've done a LOT of Guiding residentials of all types, U.K., abroad, under canvas, indoors, all ages and scales from a dozen Rangers in a holiday house to 10,000 kids from 20 counties on a famous park.

Yes, there are times when kids are changing, sleeping and even showering in close confines with other kids.

Our county's Guide holiday house has 2 dorm bedrooms, a 3- cubicle guides toilet and a 2- cubicle shower room, curtains not doors. Theres nowhere else for the girls to get changed - they just change in front of each other.
There's one leaders bedroom with 5 beds and a leaders bathroom.
There is no separate men's' facilities. If we had a male unit helper, we'd have to go somewhere else to comply with the rules. If a male said they were a woman and wanted to be a leader, we'd be forced to accept without question and share our bedroom and changing space with a male.

@Beamur

Tibtom Exactly what I was about to say. How could it not be a parents responsibility and make it their business to know? Do the people saying it's none of your business even have kids? Or if they do, do you genuinely have no curiosity about the other people your child is around when you're not with them?

It's another red flag. None of your business, nothing to see here, don't look, avert your eyes.

@NewlyGranny
The Scouts just let the girls in without any fuss. Why don't the Guides do the reverse and just be open so the safeguarding can be done effectively?

Because the guided have been asked, repeatedly, over many years, if they would like to admit boys into Guides. They always, always say a resounding NO.
The law allows for this.

My daughter goes to guides and they have short hair and is exploring the idea of they/them pronouns ready for high school. This child might be a girl or a trans girl. Not sure what the official stance is with girl guiding but I think they're welcome still. They're always supervised anyway but just because they may be trans doesn't automatically make them a wrong one. Some of the girls may be worse to be fair

@NotBadConsidering

Why are you so bothered by this though?

I don’t understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. If I send any of my DDs to anywhere, I want to know who is there. If I send my DDs to a place that is only meant to have group A and instead it’s group A and B mixed together I would want to know why I was misled. For example if a party is for our school members only, but it turns out anyone from other schools can attend it changes the dynamic. I would want to know why and why I wasn’t informed.

At the pointy end of this, for the welfare of my DDs, if something is supposed to be single sex - female - and there is a male there this does two things. It changes the dynamic, which may negate the whole reason my DDs are attending in the first place; they want to be with just females. And second, it raises a safeguarding concern.

This is not a reflection on the nature, good or bad, of the male there. But it means my DDs might be placed in a situation where they are alone with a male they don’t know. The teachers/leaders might be placing children of both sexes in situations that may not be appropriate (without being nefarious), so the leaders need to know what they are going to do in that situation and be able to relay it to me. This protects everyone: my DDs, them, and the male.

But a lack of open communication of such a situation would lead me to think they haven’t even thought about such issues, don’t have safeguarding policy and/or would think I am not entitled to have any say about their approach to supervising my DDs. I will not be lied to or gaslit into thinking everything is fine in this scenario because experience tells me that these organisations do not place the feelings or welfare of mine or anyone else’s DDs at the forefront, but do the males.

It doesn’t matter how minor it is, how small a thing it is, how it may be perceived that the thing they’re doing in this mixed sex group doesn’t pose a threat as far as they can see, I still want to know.

If I could confidently think that the world has the back of my DDs to do what’s right, then maybe I wouldn’t be “so bothered” but it’s highly likely their needs will be put last.

And finally by getting worked up over what might be a small thing to some people I am setting an example to my DDs that if you’re promised something as a right, it’s taken away from you, and then people pretend it isn’t happening (“that’s not a boy, silly!”), then let’s stand together and make a fuss about it and not just accept it meekly and let these people get away with it.

So I imagine that’s why the OP is bothered.

I'm also quoting this as being an excellent summary and explanation of why parents, and indeed children themselves have a right to know the parameters governing who is allowed into their safe spaces.

@Looneytune253
Your daughter is female. She will always be welcome in Guiding.
If your 'daughter' was actually a boy, who 'felt like' a girl (whatever that means) and turned up to Guides saying he was a girl, at that point I would worry. However, as a Leader, I wouldn't be allowed to even question or ask, emir be aware for safeguarding purposes.

I think people forget that Guiding isn't just cute little Brownies. The oldest Rangers and young leaders are 18.

It could be:

1. A DofE helper (can be male or female, aged 14-18).
2. A transgirl who is a Guide
3. A transgirl who is a Young Leader (should be female, 14-17 but GG haven't worked out what female means)
4. A young Unit Helper (can be male or female, aged 18+)
5. A young transwoman Guider (should be female but ditto, 18+)

You should be introduced to the leadership team in person and by name. So, next time you drop off your daughter you can ask to meet them all and be introduced (and ask for their role - so you know who's in charge, who's over 18 etc.)
If this person is in roles 1 or 5 then he will not be sharing any sleeping/changing spaces with your daughter.
If this person is in role 2 you would not then be introduced to them (but you could say, oh, X and Y look older, are they leaders or Guides).
If this person is in roles 4 or 6 you will be introduced to them.

You can make it plain to the leader that you are not happy with your daughter sharing any sleeping, toilet or changing facilities with anyone male/with this person. You could do this privately. If this person is in roles 4 or 6 you could mention them by name.

It is also unlikely but possible that he's 7. a son of a Guider who couldn't get home otherwise/can't be left alone. If that's the case then he won't be on any residentials.

My brother used to attend girl guides with me because there wasn’t a local scouts.
He didn’t stay a member for long as he decided he didn’t want to be part of the girls club - we then moved too so both left after a few months.
I thought no the scouts and girl guides were mixed gender

And no, they're not "always supervised". It's completely impossible to have adult supervision 100% of the time at a camp. Girls will go off in groups onsite, to the shower facilities, collecting wood or water, doing activities etc. They sleep zipped into tents in groups without an adult.