A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

@Datun

How dare you?. I was not denying the existence of trans people in schools or any other section of society. Merely pointing out that there are many more cis girls than trans girls. There are also boys, who may be volunteering (eg for d of e) or attending with a leader. It's entirely possible that this poor child who is being judged by strangers on the internet is trans but it is not the only possible explanation and as I said in both my comments, it is too soon and totally unnecessary for OP to be expecting a conclusive answer.

It's interesting that you think girls being able to identify the opposite sex is judging them.

That's for the rest, the OP is speculating and asking for advice. She hasn't done anything. She hasn't even questioned her daughter. The 'poor child' in question knows nothing about it.

And probably never will. If they do turn out to be male, the OP can do nothing about it, other than withdraw her daughter.

This wasn't a response to OP. The daughter isn't judging anyone. People here are. I am aware that OP hasn't done anything other than (possibly deliberately) poking this hornet's nest. My reply to her was to do nothing, it has been one meeting, let the daughter get to know the other girls. If there are then decisions to be made down the line (eg re residentials), fine. This is all just unnecessary speculation.

But it does matter. Allowing males into the GG will EXLUDE some females. Those are the "poor kids" I feel sorry for.

This wasn't a response to OP. The daughter isn't judging anyone. People here are. I am aware that OP hasn't done anything other than (possibly deliberately) poking this hornet's nest. My reply to her was to do nothing, it has been one meeting, let the daughter get to know the other girls. If there are then decisions to be made down the line (eg re residentials), fine. This is all just unnecessary speculation.*

They're not judging though tube.

It's not about the individual concerned. They are as much a victim of stereotyping as anyone else.

It's about the safeguarding aspect. If you are telling little girls they're not allowed to identify the male sex, it's a massive problem.

Surely you see that?

Or worse, that the male sex doesn't exist. And they must not believe their 'own lying eyes'.

Herrena
Say the boy who identifies as a girl is 14 you would be happy with your 11 year old daughter sharing a tent, getting changed for swimming, getting changed into pyjamas, and sleeping in a tent with him for a week on a residential. You can see it’s going to happen but neither you or your daughter are allowed to question it or refer to the 14 year olds physical differences in any way. This is supposed to be a female only organisation. In what way does this make any sense.
So you don’t do it because we are paralyzed from safe guarding it effectively so we withdraw our daughters from a female only residential trip. It’s absolute bullshit.

@Hoosi

Ugh, I’m remembering why I never suggested guides to my dds. What a mess they are.

But your dd is there?

@Fruityfriday
The scouts safeguarding policy is written for a mix sex cohort.

The guiding safeguarding is based on single sex and never updated to reflect they are gender based now. Their safeguarding policy is a joke.

That's why it's okay for scouts to be mixed and not guides

But your dd is there?

Not at the OP's suggestion though.

Guides is not for girls. Girls can join scouts, boys can join guides.

Get over it and do nothing.

@LittleNibbler

Guides is not for girls. Girls can join scouts, boys can join guides.

Get over it and do nothing.

Turns out I’m wrong. But boys can join if they identify as girls.

Why are you so bothered by this though?

I would tread carefully. I am a Brownie leader and we had a girl who said she was a boy. She has a complicated family set up.

Are you implying that children who are trans or non binary have complicated family set ups? WTF?

OP, the first two responses to you post are from a very vocal trans supporter and someone who appears to have joined MN yesterday. Lots of other people on here telling you to chill, it's not a problem are names I don't recognise — and I've only been posting here for a year or so.

There are some strange things going on on this board. Yesterday about 20 people had signed a letter from a clearly right-wing, Christian and very probably homophobic organisation.

Seems to me that since MNHQ separated Sex and Gender from the rest of feminism, there seems to have been an outbreak of new posters telling feminists that they're not seeing what they're seeing...

@FlyPassed

Did this thread start on another board? Because I've never seen so many posters on here demonstrate such a complete and frightening lack of understanding of basic safeguarding

It's trending. I didn't even know what board it was on. I just clicked on the link in the trending list.

My DD went up to guides when she turned 10. A couple of weeks in, I noticed a boy going in. I assumed an older brother/leader’s son. But when he came out at the end, without a jacket on, he was wearing a guide top and was picked up by a parent.

I asked DD. She had been confused by this child, she also thought it was a boy but they used a girl’s name.

She eventually dropped back down to Brownies as she didn’t really enjoy it (at 10 she was the youngest by some way and couldn’t socially bridge the gap to secondary school kids) and there didn’t seem to be other brownies from her pack there.

When she went back up to Guides we chose a different evening, and found a fair proportion of other former brownies from her pack there. Appears to me that other parents knew and deliberately didn’t send their child on the same evening as brownies. I imagine the mixed sex pack will wither as other parents make the same choice (it was already run by a temporary leader).

Guiding has truly lost its way on this one, and my two go only because they love it, but the gaslighting that it is a single sex organisation is unbelievable.

Children who identify as trans need support and understanding, but neither they nor other children should be lied to about whether humans can change sex and whether single sex (not single gender) services are important.

@Thelnebriati

Some of the comments are weird. Its normal for very young children to believe 'short hair = boy, long hair = girl' because they haven't met enough people to learn about nuance. But as we grow older we become very good at telling the sex of the vast majority of other people.

Telling your children they are mistaken about the sex of a person (especially one you have never met) is a red flag for safeguarding. If they ever need to describe an incident, they need to be able to use plain English without other people policing their use of language.

Or it's about teaching your children tolerance and to celebrate difference......

@Shedbuilder

OP, the first two responses to you post are from a very vocal trans supporter and someone who appears to have joined MN yesterday. Lots of other people on here telling you to chill, it's not a problem are names I don't recognise — and I've only been posting here for a year or so.

There are some strange things going on on this board. Yesterday about 20 people had signed a letter from a clearly right-wing, Christian and very probably homophobic organisation.

Seems to me that since MNHQ separated Sex and Gender from the rest of feminism, there seems to have been an outbreak of new posters telling feminists that they're not seeing what they're seeing...

Ah, okay.

Although it's a nuisance, it's the tried and trusted method of making everyone become gender critical.

I would say a good 80 or 90% of people who understand the issues, were brought to that understanding by watching TRAs fail to make their argument, rather than listening to women in the first place. Such is the way of the world. But fortunately, in this respect, it works in our favour.

Or it's about teaching your children tolerance and to celebrate difference......

Haha! The difference that they're not allowed to acknowledge!

Or it's about teaching your children tolerance and to celebrate difference

You can do this whilst still practising safeguarding appropriate for mixed sex situations, as Scouts do. Which means being honest with parents.

Because my dd thought it was a boy and guides is for girls

Ha ha ha!

Guides is "for anyone who identifies as a girl or woman" these days. It's one of the reasons I left Guiding after volunteering for nearly 20 years.

Good luck with the sleeping/dressing/showering arrangements on residentials OP.

Loads of girls go to Scouts and Cubs. You're not allowed to run exclusively "girl" or "boy" clubs anymore as it's discrimination. It probably is a boy.

Actually, yes you are.

I was away for more than a week, Datun, and really noticed when I came back to the board that something had changed.

Yesterday's thread 'Letter to the PM' if you can find it, looked like a calculated way to set MNetters up as right-wing Christian bigots. I didn't recognise the names who said they'd signed it without, apparently, reading it and applying their brains. The woman who wrote the letter is a right-wing Christian who says the Bible says that sex outside marriage (and she means heterosexual marriage) is a sin. And apparently a load of MNetters signed it...

@Shedbuilder

I was away for more than a week, Datun, and really noticed when I came back to the board that something had changed.

Yesterday's thread 'Letter to the PM' if you can find it, looked like a calculated way to set MNetters up as right-wing Christian bigots. I didn't recognise the names who said they'd signed it without, apparently, reading it and applying their brains. The woman who wrote the letter is a right-wing Christian who says the Bible says that sex outside marriage (and she means heterosexual marriage) is a sin. And apparently a load of MNetters signed it...

Ah right. Maybe there is a push to colonise the feminist section?

The problem with that is you actually have to have some kind of coherent argument to put forward.

And as we all know...

@MrsFin eh? I was a guide we never had showers together or dressed together...we did activities together but I never saw anyone even semi-naked?

@Datun

* This wasn't a response to OP. The daughter isn't judging anyone. People here are. I am aware that OP hasn't done anything other than (possibly deliberately) poking this hornet's nest. My reply to her was to do nothing, it has been one meeting, let the daughter get to know the other girls. If there are then decisions to be made down the line (eg re residentials), fine. This is all just unnecessary speculation.*

They're not judging though tube.

It's not about the individual concerned. They are as much a victim of stereotyping as anyone else.

It's about the safeguarding aspect. If you are telling little girls they're not allowed to identify the male sex, it's a massive problem.

Surely you see that?

Yes of course i see that. I don't for one moment think (and have certainly not suggested) that OP tell her daughter that she is wrong.

I also don't think she should assume that she is wrong.

I do think, and have stated, that there is more than one possible explanation, and that it makes no sense for anyone who has not met this child (OP included) to be coming to any particular conclusion or decision at this stage. Let the daughter get to know the other Guides and see what unfolds, if it is an issue.

I'd mind my own business.

When your daughter has been going there a little longer, no doubt she and you will be better informed.