A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

I haven't told anyone to educate themselves. I think you are mixing me up with cloudsandteacups.

etorih - you've misread. The 'educate yourself' comment was made cloudsandteacups

Sorry Reacher. ♥️

If you've "done a bunch of safeguarding" you'll know you just have to consider the worst possible scenario and work out exactly how it can be prevented.

Exactly.

Read any serious case review. If you end up participating in one you can guarantee you will have been expected to:

• ask the difficult and uncomfortable questions of yourself and others involved. Such as why male people in this situation are stringently managed for safeguarding reasons, but all that management is abandoned on the spot if the male person chooses to say they identify as a girl/woman. Why are we bothering with those safeguards in the first place, are those safeguards actually needed, and has the reason for them for females changed based on a named identity? Are we giving male and female needs equal consideration and priority here? What is our primary brief and responsibility?

• Have you thought the unthinkable? Yes. Seriously. You are expected to do this. Imagine the worst case scenario and protect those you are responsible for. You must consider what if the people involved are not trustworthy, not well intentioned, if mistakes are made, if people do not act responsibly, what can go wrong? The 'they're lovely and wouldn't do that/it's nasty to think that of people' stuff won't cut it.

• Are you prioritising the needs and feelings of adults over and above your duty to protect the child? Particularly vulnerable adults, or adults with a lot of need for your time, input, energy, or who can present challenges or behaviours you find difficult to cope with if challenged or unhappy with you?

This is basic, everyday stuff. BASIC.

@Reachersloveinterest

Gawd, I don't know how your name going to be at the top of that paragraph. It's happened to me, to be honest. Makes it look like I wrote something I didn't.

*came to be

Are we pretending now that children can't tell the difference between males and females? If she wasn't sure she would probably say she didn't know if it was a girl or a boy. If she says it's a boy, it's a boy

@Reachersloveinterest

Hypothetically.

Say I'm a Brownie leader planning a Pack Holiday.

My DBS checked, GGUK approved husband is the unit helper, and we have a 7 year old DS who has to come with us because there's nobody else to care for him.

My assistant Leader is a self-ID trans woman. They have been DBS checked, but in their new name, not their 'dead name'.

There are 18 Brownies attending, one is a 7-year old trans girl.

I have to provide separate sleeping accommodation, showering and toilet facilities for DH and DS, away from the Brownies and other adults. I have to list them as males on the permission to plan form, have their attendance approved by my district commissioner, and all the Brownie's parents are aware that they will be present and choose to send or not send their Brownie on pack holiday accordingly. I write my risk assessment to allow for a female first aider to be present and for No leader to ever be alone with a Brownie.
Quite rightly, they are considered as a risk because they are male, and safeguarding processes kick in.

Meanwhile, the Brownie's parents are not aware that one of the Leaders is a self-ID transwoman, and one of the Brownies is a trans girl. They share sleeping accommodation and showers and toilet facilities with the other Brownies, and a Leader's bedroom with me, despite the fact that my own husband is not allowed to do so.
They are marked as female on the permission to plan forms, and treated as female for safeguarding and risk assessment purposes.

Can anyone explain why, in this hypothetical situation, the Brownie's trans girl and trans woman Leader are considered less of a risk than the leader's husband and son?

The reason given, and the only one that is remotely logical, is that "transwomen are women and transgirls are girls". But the logic stops there. Because no one can explain how they are women. That's why there can be "no debate". That's why "TWAW" is rehearsed like a mantra. Because that's all they have. Meanwhile preteen and teen girls have lost a penis free space.

There will be an "incident" at some point, and the shit really will hit the fan. I didn't want it to happen on my watch.

Exactly.

Except the whole point of safeguarding is that this doesn't happen as we've put the safeguards in place.

Idiots playing this down will have this currently hypothetical incident on their hands.

Our local cubs and scouts is about 30% girls. So on that basis it would seem fair that a boy can go to Brownies if they want to?

@Marianicka

Our local cubs and scouts is about 30% girls. So on that basis it would seem fair that a boy can go to Brownies if they want to?

Maybe try reading some of the thread before commenting?

It's not about fairness. Scouting and Girl Guiding are separate organisations and have chosen to have different rules.

@Marianicka

Our local cubs and scouts is about 30% girls. So on that basis it would seem fair that a boy can go to Brownies if they want to?

Please read the thread. This has been done to death already.

@Marianicka

Our local cubs and scouts is about 30% girls. So on that basis it would seem fair that a boy can go to Brownies if they want to?

Our afterschool club is approx 50:50 boys:girls so on that basis it would seem fair that ice skaters can skate on the curling rink if they want to?

The system has gone mad. There will be a disaster eventually. And the usual cop outs will be trotted out. Lessons will be learned. They never are.

@Sejoice

I would imagine that the children are wrong about it being a boy. Gender doesn’t really become that pronounced until they are 11. You won’t really get transgender kids at that age and I would do absolutely nothing even if they were a boy because you do not know the situation and there is no real reason to do anything.

@Sejoice do try reading the thread. Or at least the OP's posts. The person was not 10 years old. They were described as "older, tall, long hair, low voice".

And gender sometimes presents itself as early as minus five months. You know, when those tacky "gender reveal" parties take place to swathe the as-yet unborn child in either blue or pink and induct them into societies stereotypes as to how each sex should look and behave. Because that's what gender is, a collection of stereotypes and societal norms. Or was "sex" the word you were looking for?

I dont think you should teach your daughter to be afraid of boys, OP. She'll be a more balanced persin if she interacts with both genders.

@SourAppleChew

I dont think you should teach your daughter to be afraid of boys, OP. She'll be a more balanced persin if she interacts with both genders.

Have you even read the thread? This isn't about being afraid of boys or interacting with both genders (esp as this is about the possibility of a transgirl in the unit). This is about guides ignoring basic safeguarding, and to some extent letting the DD trust her instincts.

Wanting / expecting certain spaces to be single sex isn't teaching girls to be afraid of boys.

@SourAppleChew

I dont think you should teach your daughter to be afraid of boys, OP. She'll be a more balanced persin if she interacts with both genders.

Are you saying we should not teach girls to have boundaries? That they should ignore men and boys who transgress their privacy or pretend to be something they are not?

Its not a question of being afraid of boys. The males and females are kept separate on these residential events because it's a protection issue. So if male children are allowed in female sleeping quarters then there is no point in the protection rules.

Sorry, haven't RTFT and this has probably already been said but

Meanwhile, the Brownie's parents are not aware that one of the Leaders is a self-ID transwoman, and one of the Brownies is a trans girl. Self i-d is not UK law and both of these are people are self id, including the child because most children under 18 are not allowed surgery or medication. Dereliction of duty - wide open to legal challenge

@SourAppleChew

I dont think you should teach your daughter to be afraid of boys, OP. She'll be a more balanced persin if she interacts with both genders.

That thing sailing over your head is the point You might want to read the thread.

@highame

Sorry, haven't RTFT and this has probably already been said but

Meanwhile, the Brownie's parents are not aware that one of the Leaders is a self-ID transwoman, and one of the Brownies is a trans girl. Self i-d is not UK law and both of these are people are self id, including the child because most children under 18 are not allowed surgery or medication. Dereliction of duty - wide open to legal challenge

This is exactly the point, but GGUK seem to have swallowed Stonewall's version of the law whole.

What’s that thing where a proper name becomes used as a generic-like hoover, or biro?
“Stonewall Law” is going to become the shorthand in years to come for inaccurate guidance based on wishing rather than legislation.

I dont think you should teach your daughter to be afraid of boys, OP. She'll be a more balanced persin if she interacts with both genders.

I doubt she will be if she's taught to break down her barriers and accept those with penises into the places where she showers / undresses / sleeps on a girls residential holiday. Vulnerable to abuse yes. Balanced. Nah.