A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

I posted a link to Dr Katie Alcock's crowdfunder, mumsnet have hidden it, so I guess that's not allowed?

Can I mention her court case at all?

First day at mumsnet for months and already annoyed someone!

I would imagine that the children are wrong about it being a boy. Gender doesn’t really become that pronounced until they are 11. You won’t really get transgender kids at that age and I would do absolutely nothing even if they were a boy because you do not know the situation and there is no real reason to do anything.

Bloody hell - this takes NAMALT to a whole other level!!!!!
Can't believe CBUK22 is complaining about violence without acknowledging that it is MEN who commit the overwhelming majority of violent crime
And on a feminist board
Give me strength

At the end of the day it's up to market forces isn't it. If girls want an all girls group they will sign up and their parents volunteer for guides. If anyone wants a mixed sex group they will sign up and their parents volunteer for scouts. If boys wanted an all boys group they could have kept scouts single sex - apparently not enough did want it, and not enough dads were prepared to put in the effort.

I don't see why if what girls want is an all girls environment once a week, and their parents are willing to volunteer and support that they can't have it. Being away from the male gaze can be quite freeing for girls. There are good stats showing girls do better in all girls schools.

And women are guilty of exactly the same

what of not understanding how their presence alters an all male environment? WHAT DO YOU MEAN MAN?

'cos it just reads like more 'wah wah wah poor me'

can you explain?

I know it’s women’s job to centre men, but perhaps this thread could avoid the 🦭’s desired trajectory and return to the issue of how dangerous it is to permit sexed male bodies into an organisation that has NO safeguarding procedures in place.
Before they turn up and say we’re exclusive (as if there’s anything wrong with that), they’re welcome to suggest ways that safeguarding could work, or indeed engage in a conversation about whether girls deserve spaces, rather than complaining about how boys are discriminated against.

sejoice- transgender kids are getting younger. Quite a few news items recently- 3 and 4 Yr olds if I remember correctly.
Girls and women are 'programmed' (can't think of a better way to put it) to recognise males; its primal.

yes indeed, sorry MrsWooster (your name makes that sound strangely formal)

It is very interesting though to have a man here amply demonstrating that he can only think about the feelings of male children who may want to associate with girls, and men who may want to hug children, not girls who may (and in my experience probably do) want a place away from boys, and women and children who do not want to be touched willy nilly by random men

And girls do deserve single sex spaces but safeguarding is the key; if its mixed sex then the policy should reflect that.

Given the complaint is not that mixed sex organisations safeguard the children by having sex segregation on residentials one can only assume the bitterness is because girls have somewhere to go. Or did at least.

They have completely overlooked the fact that it was men and boys who didnt attend or run the groups In large enough numbers to keep it going.

Its all a bit " if I can't have it no one can"

So its ok that mixed sex groups don't lix the secs because the girls may make accusations against the boys but not ok to have a single sex spaces for girls because that hurts mens feelings of they aren't allowed full unlimited access as that's treating them like criminals.

Which is it? Sex segregation is ok or its not?

Do you think boys scouts should sleep next to girls scouts ?

If not why?

@Eyesofdisarray

Bloody hell - this takes NAMALT to a whole other level!!!!! Can't believe CBUK22 is complaining about violence without acknowledging that it is MEN who commit the overwhelming majority of violent crime And on a feminist board Give me strength

This person said they are/were a school governor. But they don't understand safeguarding.

As a prolific volunteer myself, I know loads of fantastic male volunteers. None of them ever complain about safeguarding issues, they just get on with providing a wonderful experience for the children they volunteer with.

Whenever a man bleats about safeguarding and not being able to touch who they want to, they are telling you who they are.

This is why, early on in the thread, I posted about how important it is that I know exactly who is involved in the care of my daughters in situations where I am not there. I would definitely want to know if men like CBUK22 were involved. This is not because I think CBUK22 would be a predator. It’s because I would be concerned that a predator would see the soft access that CBUK22 provides to predators. “Hey mate, those bloody women, think all of us men are bad eh? Not like you and me though mate!”

It would be 🚩 🚩🚩🚩 and klaxons all the way. This is what the thread is about. Knowing exactly who is with your children, why, and what their attitudes to safeguarding are so parents can make a risk assessment.

@Rizzoli123

I used to be a brownie guider. As rules changed we were told boys and girls could join to promote inclusivity. No boys ever joined as they prefered scouts. We were told if scouts let girls in why can't boys become brownies

Why was I deleted for asking this poster to clarify this statement?

I'll try again. When did this happen? GGUK is a single sex organisation, has been since its inception. If your unit was admitting boys, this was against GGUK's rules. So, when you say, "We were told," by whom were you told? Was this squared with your District Commissioner or anyone else in the chain of command of GGUK?

Yep.
Red flags with bells on.
The men who get outraged about safeguarding are the ones inadvertently letting in the ones who are real trouble.

But it is my perception (as well as many men I know) that there is an inherent suspicion towards men in any way involved with children which is not levied at women.

Unfortunately crime statistics prove you are statistically more likely to be a predator than any woman.
Hence the problem caused by the lack of guidelines in GG to prevent people who are male, who identify as women, access to female guides when sleeping, showering,changing etc.

@Rizzoli123

I used to be a brownie guider. As rules changed we were told boys and girls could join to promote inclusivity. No boys ever joined as they prefered scouts. We were told if scouts let girls in why can't boys become brownies

Unless this wasn't in the UK, or you mean transgirls, you have got the wrong end of the stick.

@Itmustbeheresomewhere nothing like that allowed.

Oh pity!

You are amazing thank you for standing up for what is right!

Bit of a jump. You'd look mental if you said anything. Anyway the scouts it largely unisex now, so maybe guides should go to the same way? I'm not sure on that one, but that's a separate issue.

Anyway the scouts it largely unisex now, so maybe guides should go to the same way?

‘Cos growing up as a girl is exactly the same as growing up as a boy innit?

No i havent. That's what My dc at the time said to me. I have it written in my minutes.

@miltonj

Bit of a jump. You'd look mental if you said anything. Anyway the scouts it largely unisex now, so maybe guides should go to the same way? I'm not sure on that one, but that's a separate issue.

Do you normally go around calling people 'mental' for watching out for their children? I don't think most people think safeguarding is 'mental'. Is safeguarding something that upsets you or that you think should be weakened? Why is that, I wonder.

That poster insinuated that a parent who was concerned about the safeguarding in relation to their children would 'look mental' if they said anything in relation to that concern.

That would leave children very vulnerable indeed; if their parents/guardians cannot satisfy themselves as best they can about the people who are 'in loco parentis' and safeguarding measures in place.

Actually up to 20% of child sex offenders in the UK are actually women. And this is a trend which has accelerated in recent years if data is to be believed
The thing is, CBUK22, the data cannot be believed, not any more. You know why, I'm sure, but if not, look up e.g. Katie Dolatowski, and also see the petition asking for offenders to be recorded by sex, not gender, throughout the justice system.

Don't want to derail, but also didn't want this disingenuous assertion to go unchallenged.

@Rizzoli123

No i havent. That's what My dc at the time said to me. I have it written in my minutes.

Please take it from someone who has been closely involved with Guiding at grassroots level as a District Commissioner, Guide and Rangers Leader and before that as a young member, for the last 32 years.

Boys and men have never been accepted as members of GirlGuiding at any level, ever.

They can be unit helpers (non-uniformed, and do not make the Promise) boys can be Volunteers for example
If they are doing DofE. They are not members of GGUK.

Girls and women joining Guiding do so in the belief that they are joining a single-sex organisation for girls and women, which is legally allowed and it is what GGUK's members have said they want when they have been consulted on the matter, many times over the years. Now, however, they could find boys and men admitted by stealth because GGUK policy was quietly changed to 'single gender' instead of single sex, allowing self-identifying transwomen and trans girls to join on exactly the same terms as women and girls and nobody is allowed to query it or suggest that additional safeguarding measures may be required. If a 17 year old trans girl wanted to join my Ranger unit and share sleeping accommodation with the other Rangers at camp, I would have to let them, regardless of the fact that they could easily impregnate one of the other Rangers, and I wouldn't even be allowed to mention this as a risk on the RA or reply to questions from girls parents.