A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

@Reachersloveinterest what a ridiculous thing to say! You know that in Scouting and other youth organisations there is no requirement to separate sleeping arrangements by biological sex or gender identity? Can we please get past such outdated views? Ridiculous!

[quote CloudsandTeacups]@Reachersloveinterest what a ridiculous thing to say! You know that in Scouting and other youth organisations there is no requirement to separate sleeping arrangements by biological sex or gender identity? Can we please get past such outdated views? Ridiculous![/quote]
No requirement to segregate, when the young people and their parents are all aware and involved in the decision process.
If everyone knows who is there and agrees, and appropriate RAs are undertaken and safeguarding processes are followed, then fine. The point is that as nobody in GG is allowed to
Question, these measures can't be done effectively. Read the full thread.

Also GG is not Scouting. In Gg, segregated sleeping arrangements are demanded. A leader's young son is not allowed, officially, to share a tent with his own mother at a Guide camp. (I've got away with this so far, but I won't for much longer as my DS is getting bigger). The permission to plan forms leaders complete for every residential demand separate facilities for males. If the male in question is wearing guide uniform and nobody is allowed to say anything, GG cannot follow its own rules.

@thirdfiddle

At the end of the day it's up to market forces isn't it. If girls want an all girls group they will sign up and their parents volunteer for guides. If anyone wants a mixed sex group they will sign up and their parents volunteer for scouts. If boys wanted an all boys group they could have kept scouts single sex - apparently not enough did want it, and not enough dads were prepared to put in the effort.

I don't see why if what girls want is an all girls environment once a week, and their parents are willing to volunteer and support that they can't have it. Being away from the male gaze can be quite freeing for girls. There are good stats showing girls do better in all girls schools.

@thirdfiddle Its really not up to market forces or many golf clubs etc would be male only.

Like many things today it's mainly down to the far left and the Twitter club.

@Eyesofdisarray

Bloody hell - this takes NAMALT to a whole other level!!!!! Can't believe CBUK22 is complaining about violence without acknowledging that it is MEN who commit the overwhelming majority of violent crime And on a feminist board Give me strength

@Eyesofdisarray

Its SOME men! A small number of men. Do we blame all members of a faith for terrorist acts? And clearly feminism and gender politics has become such an echo chamber of Wokeness we've ended up here. With men competing as women in weight lifting and women complaining about people born as males using their toilets.

Please tell me how we identify which ones?

Do you think that boys sleep in with girls on mixed sex residetials?

Do you think they should?

Why is it only guides getting the stick here?

They don't share sleeping accommodation on scouts so are scouts bigoted too?

@TedImgoingmad You live in a very depressing and distorted world if your intimidate thought of someone who gave a distraught child a hug turn to sex.

I'd be very careful making libelous in a public forum in future.

@Whinge

When girls asked to join the scouts because the guides was too girly / restricted the scouts deemed that the benefit of single sex for boys was not justified

I really don't think this played any part in the decision. It was financial and out of fear that they would have to close.

Fun fact : I was one of the first “girls” to enrol in the scouts way back in 1975! A group of us challenged the Scouts in the wake of the Sex Discrimination Act and they agreed to let us join. At that time the Guide Association option of Rangers looked dull.

There were already boys only groups. The original groups were boys only in fact. Girls didn't muscle in, they started their own groups. Then later the boys groups found not enough boys were interested and decided to invite girls.

You can't just start your own golf club in the nearest church hall, it's hardly comparable.

[quote CBUK22]@TedImgoingmad You live in a very depressing and distorted world if your intimidate thought of someone who gave a distraught child a hug turn to sex.

I'd be very careful making libelous in a public forum in future.[/quote]
You're making legal threats against women who raise safeguarding concerns about policies?!

CBUK22

I recommend you read this thread. I recommend everyone else does, too. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4290737-Queen-Ethelburga-school-and-sex-abuse

I encourage everyone to read Queen Ethelburga thread. I am heartbroken by it. Several other schools have been added to that thread. So many teachers/people in trusted positions that have sexually assaulted children.

What really makes me enraged is that women were trying to discuss the school. They were silenced. The same thing happened at one of the other schools.

All these schools had safeguarding policies. Only at at least one of them, the predator put himself in charge of the policies.

I am desperately trying to figure out how, as a parent, I can ensure that the safeguarding policies in my children’s schools are adequate.

With regards to GG, we are talking about an absence of safeguarding policies for mixed sex. Not inadequate policies, an absence.

This is shocking to me.

The fact that I think some children need single sex provisions is a completely different point from an absence of safeguarding policies.

@CBUK22

I am so sorry about this detail, but how old is your son? Does he play competitive rugby?
I am amazed at the mixed sports.

DS plays in a junior football league. No girls in any of the teams or at the associated training.

DD plays in a netball league. No boys at training or fixtures. I feel that girls are missing out with training. Netball is only once a week, football practice is between 2 and 4 times a week depending on dedication and other commitments.

In my experience, competitive sports segregate by sex early.

My DD plays football in a girls club. She's too young for games and a few girls play in the local under 9 league which is mixed but the older groups are I believe boys only. Mostly the girls prefer the girls' club.

Do you think that boys sleep in with girls on mixed sex residetials?

They do if they say they are female.
Men can also share accommodation with female leaders, and occasionally girls, on the same basis.

And leaders are not allowed to call this out on the risk assessment, nor tell parents

CBUK22 wrote - "Women get unwanted sexual attention, men get beaten and stabbed."

This is missing the point about what men do to women, which is: women get beaten and stabbed and unwanted sexual attention.

It reminds me of the people who say that male coal miners do a difficult job digging coal. Yes, such men do a difficult job but their job is much easier that the job of the female miners who dig coal while being subjected to rape and murder by men at the coal face e.g. in South Africa.

I know Mrs fin but according to a male person on here the safguarding at girl guides is problematic becuase ot assumes that men and males are crininals bit the same complaint hasn't been made abkut sex segregation at scouts or other mixed sex scenarios. So it is seemingly just girls who's boundaries are bigoted and who are being unfair fir not admitting boys even when, given the chance to step up akd save their boy only spaces the men akd males.didnt do so.

[quote CBUK22]@TedImgoingmad You live in a very depressing and distorted world if your intimidate thought of someone who gave a distraught child a hug turn to sex.

I'd be very careful making libelous in a public forum in future.[/quote]
Is "CBUK22" the name you go by in real life? You are an anonymous nobody on the internet. How can I be libelling you? What reputation has "CBUK22" got in the world to be injured?

Besides which, I say fair comment. You are moaning about safeguarding. You are complaining you can't hug people. You want people to let you have physical contact with a child who is not your own without judging you as a pervert. You don't seem to understand why safeguarding is in place. It is not to brand every man a pervert. It is to safeguard against the ones that are, to keep children safe, and also to keep the adults in question safe from false accusations.

I do live in a depressing world, yes, where civilised conduct has been distorted by the actions and crimes of men as a class. I didn't make up safeguarding rules, and women aren't the reason they were created. The reason they were created is because men as a class can't keep their hands to themselves, can't stop themselves from abusing women and children and taking advantage of them in vulnerable situations (like a comforting hug that turns into a grope), can't stop themselves raping and can't stop themselves killing. You also seem to forget that women are also subject to safeguarding rules, so thanks to men as a class, women as a class cannot go round hugging random upset children either. However, as I said, both the female and the male volunteers I work with find it pretty easy to both observe strict safeguarding rules and make sure that all the children we look after and each other are happy and having a fun time. It becomes hard when somebody wants to break down the safeguarding rules.

About scouts i was a scout 20 years ago and i am female. Most of our areas scouts were girls.
Its not a new thing.

@Reachersloveinterest I have read the full thread. I am baffled by the assumption that adequate safeguarding policies are not in place. This is beyond comprehension. Actually what needs to happen is that you need to educate yourself before making outlandish claims.

[quote CloudsandTeacups]@Reachersloveinterest I have read the full thread. I am baffled by the assumption that adequate safeguarding policies are not in place. This is beyond comprehension. Actually what needs to happen is that you need to educate yourself before making outlandish claims.[/quote]
We know they aren't because there are guiders on here and parents of guides. I am baffled that you have read the whole thread and think an organisation that refuses to acknowledge it is mixed Sex could possibly have proper safeguarding in place.

I'd be very careful making libelous in a public forum in future.

Hardly libelous. Unless of course the meaning has changed, alongside everything else that once had defined meaning. And against an anonymous person? I'd check your legal facts around that one dear.

Its SOME men! A small number of men

so.....? I really don't get this

so women aren't entitled to the privacy, dignity and safety afforded by single sex spaces?

so girls never get to have time away from boys?

so girls must share sleeping accommodation with boys?

so randoms on the internet must feel completely comfortable to hug children or their female colleagues whenever they feel like it?

what actual point are you trying to make? cos at the moment it just looks like random bleating

[quote CloudsandTeacups]@Reachersloveinterest I have read the full thread. I am baffled by the assumption that adequate safeguarding policies are not in place. This is beyond comprehension. Actually what needs to happen is that you need to educate yourself before making outlandish claims.[/quote]
eh? what?

under GG rules male children are specifically allowed to share sleeping accommodation with female children without parents being made aware. This is a thing

CBUK22 rather than lecture women, nearly all of whom have been the victim if aex assault or harassment at the hands of men, what are you doing address the problem of male violence? Are you on men's forums lecturing them in the impact of 'banter'? Do you pull men up on their behaviour towards women? Are you raising your voice in the workplace to support single sex spaces?