A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

@DialSquare

The problem is Men. If Men are attacking other Men, it's not a problem for women to deal with. The difference is, men have the strength and pier to defend themselves. Women, who have nothing to do with make violence, can't. So it's ok for women to just be raped, assaulted and abused because men can't stop being violent?

Good bit of victim blaming there again.

MRAs are ever present. Wherever women gather they're bound to pop up and bleat on and on about how male violence is women's fault.

So we should dismantle safguarding re males around girls and women because then maybe the men will have access to nore women and perhaps leave the men alone?

What exactly are you arguing for? Equalising the abuse ?

@Gumbomambo just bringing a modicum of diversity of thought to the echo chamber.

Oh I do apologies. Shall we set up a crowdfunded for the poor men?

But Brigade do allow girls, there are gendered sports teams after a certain age to allow women to compete, I'm not aware of any male only ones for children. Locally we have girls football teams, and women's football teams. But women/girls are free to join all the others.

Yes BB do allow girls but individual units can chose not to.

You may not be aware of boys sports clubs close to you. Fair enough but there are thousand where I live in the UK.

Do you know what percentage of murder victims in the UK are male? its nearly 3/4

cor blimey - go and tell piston heads about it. None of the women here have anything to do with this

you REALLY REALLY want to see yourself as a victim don't you?

So it's ok for women to just be raped, assaulted and abused because men can't stop being violent?

Way to miss my question above CBUK22

[quote CBUK22]@Gumbomambo just bringing a modicum of diversity of thought to the echo chamber.[/quote]
the idea that men's wishes should be indulged is not diversity of thought for heaven's sake - it's the sea we swim in

your vocal discomfort is being caused by coming across an opposing view to your comfortable and convenient assumptions

@DialSquare

Women get unwanted sexual attention, men get beaten and stabbed.

And regarding this statement. Do you know how many women a week are murdered by men? It's not just unwanted sexual attention.

I have been numerously sexually assaulted 90% of them by women and only 50% within a relationship. Every time I see this on Mumsnet I see man haters who blame men for the crimes of other men (who make up 50% of the population) never certainly religious groups (and we know which ones but Mumsnet has some double standards here) for other terror attacks by some members (which would be a massive issue if they were 50% of the population) or knife crime that disproportionately affects certain groups in London (who again if normalised to make up 50% of the population would be a massive issue).

Sex religion and race are protected characteristics why are they rigourously enforced in some cases on Mumsnet and not others.

@Whatwouldscullydo

So we should dismantle safguarding re males around girls and women because then maybe the men will have access to nore women and perhaps leave the men alone?

What exactly are you arguing for? Equalising the abuse ?

@Whatwouldscullydo I'm arguing the vast majority of men are not violent/sexual criminals and should not be treated as such which they currently are by both society and the media.

Safeguards are in place, why are we trying to stop a boy being part of a girls club?

I don’t think you are at all. You assume that we are all man hating women who never think about nasty old men except to demonise. Lots of us have male partners, brothers, sons and we all have dads. Of course we see both sides, we know NAMALT. We also know from bitter personal and professional experience that some men are like that. safeguarding protects males and females too. We have to arm our children with the knowledge to protect themselves, we have to teach them about predators. My son also is being taught about male violence to women and that as a boy he must never hit or hurt a girl. He is also being taught to protect himself from other males (non violently) and how to extract himself from a potentially dangerous situation. I don’t let him play at friends houses where I don’t know them, (even then I’m. It comfortable), I do not want another adult touching him because I know where that can lead. We think about men all the time,we have to, to keep ourselves and our children safe.

You're not bringing any diversity of thought. It's the same old tripe that gets trotted out by blokes time & time again.

Because said mixed club is adamant its not a mixed club and still claiming to be all girls. Therefore males will be sharing showers akd changing facilities and tents in residentials and the parents cannot know tha its mixed sex.

A whole different ball game to openly mixed sex organisations that operate accordingly

If you haven't seen Dr Katie Alcocks interview with Graham Linehan, it is a must see, safeguarding red flags everywhere. Interview with Dr alcock at 29.00 in video.

No way would I take my child to GG while this is going on.

I used to be a brownie guider. As rules changed we were told boys and girls could join to promote inclusivity. No boys ever joined as they prefered scouts. We were told if scouts let girls in why can't boys become brownies

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Do you know what percentage of murder victims in the UK are male? its nearly 3/4

cor blimey - go and tell piston heads about it. None of the women here have anything to do with this

you REALLY REALLY want to see yourself as a victim don't you?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg No, I think we live in an incredibly safe part of the world statistically.

I'd just like to see less of the identity politics and man bashing. Practices which wouldnt be accepted against any other group, race, religion etc.

Safeguards are in place, why are we trying to stop a boy being part of a girls club?

Safeguards are NOT in place.

That’s the whole fucking point.

why are we trying to stop a boy being part of a girls club?

girls get so little privacy from boys

as a teenager I was both a Ranger Guide (all girls) and a Venture Scout (mixed sex). I valued both groups, but what I got from them was very different

men don't understand how their presence alters an all female environment. And some men are incapable of listening to women explain it to them

man bashing

aka facts

mean, mean facts

evil women!

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

why are we trying to stop a boy being part of a girls club?

girls get so little privacy from boys

as a teenager I was both a Ranger Guide (all girls) and a Venture Scout (mixed sex). I valued both groups, but what I got from them was very different

men don't understand how their presence alters an all female environment. And some men are incapable of listening to women explain it to them

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg And women are guilty of exactly the same.............

Safeguards are in place, why are we trying to stop a boy being part of a girls club?

Because according to guides, there is no boy. Therefore the safeguards that would be tripped, aren't.

But Of course you haven't read any of it. You just want to come on here and complain that feminism has gorn too far.

Let's be clear. You can't cuddle other people's children unless it's already been agreed.

Please abide by all safeguarding, even if it inconveniences you.

And I know this isn't the point, but it is a complete waste of time talking to feminists, on a thread about safeguarding, of all the reasons why you disagree with it.

I know you just want to 'say stuff at women' but it really is pointless in that all it does is reinforce the reasons, in everyone's head, why we need safeguarding in the first place.

@alkanet

You're not bringing any diversity of thought. It's the same old tripe that gets trotted out by blokes time & time again.

I know. Is there a school they go to, or something?

It's not even the first today. They all say the same things.

Greer was right.

Some Scouting groups have been mixed sex since forever - I was a female Baden Powell Scout in the 80s.

We were (& they still are) a mixed sex breakaway group that goes in for traditional scouting - lots of bivvying & whittling!

The main 'official' group, Scouting Association, was single sex until they admitted girls in the early 90s because of declining numbers of male volunteers. Basically, they needed women to run the activities, & if those women couldn't bring their dds, they weren't volunteering in sufficient numbers, which is fair enough.

Absolutely nothing stopping anyone from setting up an all male version.

Meanwhile, my BP Scouts troop was safeguarded very effectively when I was involved.

Ok, you had a good chance of slicing your thumb off or getting lost orienteering, because the USP was basically that we were lairy adventurous pioneer types (not like Scouting Association: bunch of Walter the Softy types as far as we were concerned 😉).

But girls' & boys' sleeping/washing arrangements were strictly segregated - if we half dozen girls couldn't persuade our long suffering female leader (there was only one & she was the dw of the main leader) to come camping...we weren't allowed to go.

Poor women spent many a night in a ditch in a binbag with us when I'm quite sure she'd rather have been watching Bergerac with a big glass of Mateus Rose tbh.

From everything I hear, now SA are mixed, they risk assess mixed camping very carefully.

As a teacher who's been running mixed residentials for 20 years, I risk assess sleeping arrangements etc carefully.

Girl Guides don't. That's the problem. Their own policies actively prevent them from risk assessing mixed groups on residentials because said policies make it impossible for them to recognise that they ARE running mixed sex activities in the first place. THAT is the safeguarding issue, not the inclusion of (some) males.

Obviously there are additionally other issues around inclusion for girls who are effectively excluded as it's now a mixed sex space...