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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

655 replies

Hoosi · 07/07/2021 09:16

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

OP posts:
BatmansBat · 10/07/2021 09:59

CBUK22

Are we talking boys or men? Maybe we could stick to boys for the purpose of this thread?

Do you have a son? Does he want to join the scouts?

I am only asking because my DS doesn’t? My DS does love being only with other boys. He does a lot of football and cricket. Both sports have lots of wonderful, male coaches and his football team is boys only as they play in a league.

Occasionally at football camp or cricket camp there is a token girl. Usually, they don’t really interact that much with the boys. Unless the girl is brilliant, she doesn’t really get the ball either. I did love it when a countless level girl cricketer showed up at a camp. And when an amazing football girl managed to get the ball off the boys. But I have seen that happen twice in 6 years.

I think many boys effectively have single sec spaces in sports. Do you disagree?

Datun · 10/07/2021 10:02

It's reached a point now where I wouldn't dream of giving another persons child a hug if they were hurt/crying. I'd probably extend that to (close) female colleagues too.

That's right. Unless you know them. People shouldn't go around hugging other peoples children.

Beamur · 10/07/2021 10:02

You're derailing the thread with this argument.
I don't think many people will disagree with you in thinking that there are many structural aspects of society that disadvantage men too.
I sent my DD to Brownies and then to Guides initially a bit resistant to a female only space, but a few years down the line I'm very pleased I did. She wouldn't have had the same experience in Scouts.
Fwiw I agree that boys too should have similar, ideally there would be clubs for both sexes as well as mixed.
There's no point getting on your high horse about Scouts though - that organisation chose to go mixed sex. Saying it's not fair that Guides didn't is kind of pointless really. There are still many activities that kids can do that are still segregated by sex. If you want a child to experience that then you can still find it out there.

CBUK22 · 10/07/2021 10:09

@Datun

Oh dear lord, the reason society views many men with suspicion is because they constitute 99% of paedophiles and sexual predators.

We've now got a man who bought an entire bloody school just so he can have a ready supply of children to abuse.

Men can set up any groups they like instead of moaning about the scouts that is only still going because of the women running it and the girls in it.

And men can go to whatever lengths necessary to implement safeguarding. It's not hard.

Men can do safeguarding, you know. There are rules. They don't have to guess.

@Datun

"Oh dear lord, the reason society views many men with suspicion is because they constitute 99% of paedophiles and sexual predators."

Actually up to 20% of child sex offenders in the UK are actually women. And this is a trend which has accelerated in recent years if data is to be believed. www.theguardian.com/society/2009/oct/04/uk-female-child-sex-offenders

Men can indeed implement safeguarding, but you only have to look at the treatment of female teachers who engage in sex with pupils vs men who do the same.

The fact a small proportion of men commit these despicable crimes is not a valid reason to treat all men like criminals.

Etorih · 10/07/2021 10:11

It's reached a point now where I wouldn't dream of giving another persons child a hug if they were hurt/crying. I'd probably extend that to (close) female colleagues too

Obviously not 🙄 it doesn't mean you couldn't run a male only group. As long as you stuck to the safeguard rules and refrained from hugging them. I would have thought this was obvious tbh, but maybe here lies the problem eh.

Anyway, enough derailing of the thread.

CBUK22 · 10/07/2021 10:16

@BatmansBat

CBUK22

Are we talking boys or men? Maybe we could stick to boys for the purpose of this thread?

Do you have a son? Does he want to join the scouts?

I am only asking because my DS doesn’t? My DS does love being only with other boys. He does a lot of football and cricket. Both sports have lots of wonderful, male coaches and his football team is boys only as they play in a league.

Occasionally at football camp or cricket camp there is a token girl. Usually, they don’t really interact that much with the boys. Unless the girl is brilliant, she doesn’t really get the ball either. I did love it when a countless level girl cricketer showed up at a camp. And when an amazing football girl managed to get the ball off the boys. But I have seen that happen twice in 6 years.

I think many boys effectively have single sec spaces in sports. Do you disagree?

@BatmansBat

My son plays rugby and is in a scouting group, both of which have about 20% female members and both of which are exclusively run by men. The best player by far on their rugby team is in fact a girl.

I'm deeply depressed by the current obsession of identity politics and think kids should be left to be kids.

Datun · 10/07/2021 10:20

The fact a small proportion of men commit these despicable crimes is not a valid reason to treat all men like criminals.

It is though. That's what safeguarding is. You take the worst possible scenario, and work off that basis.

You don't treat them like criminals, you enforce rules in case they behave criminally.

I have zero sympathy for people who moan about it. Because you're putting your own personal disgruntlement at not being able to do what you like, ahead of the safeguarding of all children.

CBUK22 · 10/07/2021 10:21

@Datun

It's reached a point now where I wouldn't dream of giving another persons child a hug if they were hurt/crying. I'd probably extend that to (close) female colleagues too.

That's right. Unless you know them. People shouldn't go around hugging other peoples children.

@Datun

I'm not talking about hugging random children in the street, I mean when my son has friends over to play or we have a party etc.

LolaSmiles · 10/07/2021 10:23

Ahh. You're male. That explains it
Grin
Any discussion about women, girls and safeguarding has to centre men's feelings at the moment. If only women realised that everything is worse for men and that men are the true victims

CBUK22 · 10/07/2021 10:24

@Datun

The fact a small proportion of men commit these despicable crimes is not a valid reason to treat all men like criminals.

It is though. That's what safeguarding is. You take the worst possible scenario, and work off that basis.

You don't treat them like criminals, you enforce rules in case they behave criminally.

I have zero sympathy for people who moan about it. Because you're putting your own personal disgruntlement at not being able to do what you like, ahead of the safeguarding of all children.

@Datun

Men are treated as guilty until proven otherwise in such cases, they are routinely named prior to any judgment in court based solely on an accusation.

Datun · 10/07/2021 10:25

Datun

I'm not talking about hugging random children in the street, I mean when my son has friends over to play or we have a party etc.

Not my problem. The reason you can't hug other peoples children is because of safeguarding. Stop moaning about it.

Datun · 10/07/2021 10:25

Men are treated as guilty until proven otherwise in such cases, they are routinely named prior to any judgment in court based solely on an accusation.

Take it up with the courts. Not feminists.

We are not here to solve all your problems.

ittakes2 · 10/07/2021 10:26

Gosh sorry but that is quite awful - what are you going to say? My daughter thinks one of the children might be a boy is she right because I am pre-empting concern for nights away? This child could just be a tom boy, your daughter may never choose to even stay at guides let alone go on nights away.
Prob best to only worry about something if it becomes and issue for some reason.

thirdfiddle · 10/07/2021 10:29

Millions of children attend mixed sex residential trips every year in the UK. Pretty much every primary school organses these and maintains strong safeguards.
Yes, such as males and females sleeping in separate rooms, not sharing shower facilities etc. Even at primary school. Most guides afaik would be secondary age?

Comedycook · 10/07/2021 10:29

Men are treated as guilty until proven otherwise in such cases, they are routinely named prior to any judgment in court based solely on an accusation

If a person can be legally named prior to a court case then that applies to both men and women...there's no law as far as I'm aware that says only men's names are made public. Like a pp said, that's an issue with the courts and legal system.

GintyMcGinty · 10/07/2021 10:30

Loads of girls go to Scouts and Cubs. You're not allowed to run exclusively "girl" or "boy" clubs anymore as it's discrimination. It probably is a boy.

The Scouts are open to boys and girls and have been for 40+ years.

The Guides are for girls only. That includes trans girls.

You are allowed to have girls or boys only clubs.

Whatwouldscullydo · 10/07/2021 10:33

Men are treated as guilty until proven otherwise in such cases, they are routinely named prior to any judgment in court based solely on an accusation

Safeguarding exists not just to protect the children. It also exists to avoid being placed in the position of having an accusation made in the first place then they'd not need to be named.

As fir being named that's down to the legal system take it up with them.

NewlyGranny · 10/07/2021 10:34

@CBUK22, proper safeguarding procedures do not mean all men - or all women - are being treated like criminals. Why would you think that?

Obviously most people are not paedophiles, rapists, thieves, murderers etc etc. But how are we supposed to tell, until they offend and are caught? Nobody hangs a sign round their own neck or tattoos a warning on their own forehead. Offenders look just like anyone else.

But some jobs and volunteer posts involve working with money, say, or with vulnerable people like children, or women who have experienced rape or violence, or people in bed in hospitals or care homes.

We need to be as sure as we can possibly be that anyone we trust around vulnerable people or valuable things is trustworthy, so we have checks into people's backgrounds to see whether they have ever been caught and convicted.

Most of us have had to be DBS checked at some point in our careers. Mine was always an enhanced one because I had access to children in my work. It was exactly the same check I would have undergone had I been a man in the same job; there's no special check just for men. Of course nothing shows up if someone has offended but not been caught, but best practice like not being alone with a vulnerable person helps keep everyone safe, including from false accusations. It was always a faff updating my DBS, but never did I feel indignant or resentful or that I was being accused of criminal behaviour.

How can you twist safeguarding the vulnerable into the equivalent of a blanket accusation that all men are criminals?

All people are potential criminals and that's why checks are done. I can't believe I'm explaining this to an adult!

What would you propose instead? No safeguarding and turn everyone loose? Do you understand that predatory abusers go to enormous lengths to gain access to potential victims? How would you suggest society weed them out?

CBUK22 · 10/07/2021 10:34

@GintyMcGinty

Loads of girls go to Scouts and Cubs. You're not allowed to run exclusively "girl" or "boy" clubs anymore as it's discrimination. It probably is a boy.

The Scouts are open to boys and girls and have been for 40+ years.

The Guides are for girls only. That includes trans girls.

You are allowed to have girls or boys only clubs.

@GintyMcGinty

I'm not aware of any groups which are male only?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 10/07/2021 10:36

Goodness and there was me thinking it’s both men and women who have a DBS check when working with children because safeguarding but actually it’s only men!! Must have imagined mine then 🙄

CBUK22 · 10/07/2021 10:39

@NewlyGranny I'm sharing with you the experience of being a man in modern Britain.

I volunteer to help out with youth groups my son is involved with, I volunteer as a school governor and I even go along on school trips.

But it is my perception (as well as many men I know) that there is an inherent suspicion towards men in any way involved with children which is not levied at women.

If you don't believe me, go and ask some of your male friends of their experience of it.

CBUK22 · 10/07/2021 10:41

@thirdfiddle

Millions of children attend mixed sex residential trips every year in the UK. Pretty much every primary school organses these and maintains strong safeguards. Yes, such as males and females sleeping in separate rooms, not sharing shower facilities etc. Even at primary school. Most guides afaik would be secondary age?
@thirdfiddle And why cant guides, brownies etc implement this too?

Its quite normal for students in secondary and tertiary to attend residential trips too?

Whatwouldscullydo · 10/07/2021 10:42

You are almost there..

Gg doesn't implement this because they don't believe they are a.mixed sex organisation. That's the point

DialSquare · 10/07/2021 10:44

I'm telling you as a man that is the experience, society views you with massive suspicion.

Have you been touched up, leered at, shouted at waking down the street, men in cars beeping their horn at you? Do you have to think about getting home late at night? Not be able to walk anywhere at anytime that may be isolated or where someone can attack you without anyone else seeing? Keep a weapon in your bag just in case? Look over your shoulder regularly? Constantly think about your safety in all situations. Think about what you may be wearing in case it's thought as an invitation or is impractical should you need a quick getaway. These are just a small example of the female experience. Men are viewed suspiciously because of these behaviours. We didn't know what men are the safe ones.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 10/07/2021 10:44

I'd probably extend that to (close) female colleagues too.

yeah. don't hug your female colleagues. They almost certainly very sincerely don't want you to

jeez, men really have no fucking idea do they?