A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

I also want for Datun to never ever shut up.

You got it. 😁

Everyone getting hung up on this individual child needs to realise this is not about any specific individual but about the bigger picture.

Women like the OP shouldn't be in the position to question this at all- this is the result of Girl Guide's policies and woeful safeguarding.

Girl Guides has existed in Britain for over a hundred years and this is only an issue now. Why?

That's what we need to look at.

@HerrenaHarridan

Low voice... in a preteen?

Sure

The speed with which you’ve all got riled up over a kid you’ve never even met and had to make endless assumptions about to fit your anti trans narrative disgusts me

You've not been reading the OP's posts either then. The person was older.

Why are women always told to shut up when they are explaining safeguarding? I find it quite sinister.

Why are women always told to shut up when they are explaining safeguarding?
Beats me. Not a clue. Oh, hang on...

I'm pleased to see in the world of continued hypocrisy girls can join scouts, cubs, beavers etc but boys can't be guides, rainbows, brownies etc.

@Redapplewreath

Again (not that the people ranting about how awful it is to comment on this will actually read the thread properly anyway)

The issue is not whether or not the child is male.

The issue is not criticising whether a female child is presenting as sufficiently female.

The issue is, that parents cannot trust GG that all children present will be female.

When they could, no one would have needed to question any child's presentation regardless of what it was because every child present was known to be female.

The reason it matters that parents cannot trust that all the children in the unit are in fact female is (for the OP) that now the realisation is there that she cannot trust in this or even question this, her dd cannot go on residentials and have those GG opportunities so many of us could enjoy as children.

The OP thankfully does not come from a situation where her dd cannot be present in a mixed sex group for a leisure activity, as she would then have to withdraw her dd altogether.

Additional points being noted by commentators: (repeatedly)

• there are many mixed sex groups available to children that offer what GG are offering and where identity makes no difference.

• in order to allow a natal male child's freedom of expression, natal female children are losing their opportunities. They are all losing the experience of a female only group (GG's policy somewhat hypocritically talks at length about why this is important to value for female children). Many will no longer be able to experience camps and residentials because of the very confused boundaries for safeguarding and disregarding of the privacy, dignity and perceptions of natal female children in favour of natal male children. Which is worryingly sexist. And some female children will lose access to any social children's activities at all.

Cue here comments about how misogynist religions shouldn't be allowed anyway in the UK, with total disregard that getting female people of all ages into female only swims, activity groups etc was a major plank in widening female people's lives and opportunities and a step in supporting a move towards the liberation of those female people. But all that's been abandoned because it doesn't fit with the needs of less than 1% of natal male people.

If you're going to be thoroughly rude to female people over this at least understand the basic facts under discussion.

@Redapplewreath - I have no issue with there being boys clubs and girls clubs or mixed clubs.

I'm getting fairly sick of the double standard of man bashing where we can have girls/women's clubs but you'd never get away with a male only version.

Why can't girls and women have some space away from the continual presence of boys and men? What's your problem with women and. girls having their own space? What's your problem with safeguarding?

I'm getting fairly sick of the double standard of man bashing where we can have girls/women's clubs but you'd never get away with a male only version

As far as I'm aware the Scouts were male-only for decades and decided to take on girls because they needed female leaders and assistants because not enough DBS-checked men were volunteering, numbers were falling and they were in financial trouble. Women and girls saved the Scouts. I take it you're a bloke?

@Shedbuilder Scouting and it's derivatives have been open to all genders since 1976. At this point they had only handful of female members. So no, what you say is not correct.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-13082946

@Shedbuilder

Why can't girls and women have some space away from the continual presence of boys and men? What's your problem with women and. girls having their own space? What's your problem with safeguarding?

@Shedbuilder sounds great to me, but why should it just be girls/women?

Look at the massive uproar about golf clubs which wanted to be men only for example.

However there are two female only gyms in my small-ish hone town alone.

As a man I can understand that you might be against female only clubs etc, despite the fact that they only exist because men wouldn't let women and girls join their clubs.
However, this thread is about safeguarding policies which allow male leaders and male guides to share intimate spaces with female children. As a man , do you think this is tight?

I'm getting fairly sick of the double standard of man bashing where we can have girls/women's clubs but you'd never get away with a male only version

Yes if only the dads had stepped up to run the cubs / beavers / scouts. But generally they don't. It's the women that have kept it going. Without the women they wouldn't exist anymore. Turn your rage to the lazy men who didnt step up.

Tight?????
RIGHT

@334bu

As a man I can understand that you might be against female only clubs etc, despite the fact that they only exist because men wouldn't let women and girls join their clubs. However, this thread is about safeguarding policies which allow male leaders and male guides to share intimate spaces with female children. As a man , do you think this is tight?

@334bu Millions of children attend mixed sex residential trips every year in the UK. Pretty much every primary school organses these and maintains strong safeguards.

Millions of children attend mixed sex residential trips every year in the UK. Pretty much every primary school organses these and maintains strong safeguards.

Safe guards go out the window when it changes from mixed sex to same gender. Don't confuse the two.

@Etorih

I'm getting fairly sick of the double standard of man bashing where we can have girls/women's clubs but you'd never get away with a male only version

Yes if only the dads had stepped up to run the cubs / beavers / scouts. But generally they don't. It's the women that have kept it going. Without the women they wouldn't exist anymore. Turn your rage to the lazy men who didnt step up.

@Etorih

1. Scouting has been open to both sexes since the mid 1970's when there was no shortage of male leaders.

2. Men arent hesitant to get involved with youth groups out of laziness. Its due to the fact they are automatically perceived as sexual predictors until proven otherwise.

I regularly take my son out for the day alone, but I'd be fairly uncomfortable to take him with one of his female friends, you are guilty until proven innocent in these matters.

@Shedbuilder sounds great to me, but why should it just be girls/women?

Look at the massive uproar about golf clubs which wanted to be men only for example.

However there are two female only gyms in my small-ish hone town alone.

Hm, let's just have a little think about the last 1-200 years.

Men used to have all the power, women were excluded from voting, standing in elections, owning property within marriage, being able to graduate at university etc.

Even when those things changed men kept men-only spaces like golf clubs to network in. Strangely enough women struggled to move up in business or politics.

Hence women campaigned for access to these places where power was shared.

Women also want places to exercise where they aren't harassed by men, hence the women only gyms.

Basically, if men could behave as a group like reasonable human beings things would be very different and your arguments might hold some weight.

Until then ....

Ahh. You're male. That explains it.

Scouting has been open to both sexes since the mid 1970's when there was no shortage of male leaders.

From the article:

In 1990 girls were allowed to join all age ranges in some UK scout groups, but it was not until 2007 that the association ruled that girls may join any UK scout group, in any age range.

So really the girls were going the group's that their mothers were running.
My local scout group has about 3 girls. The rest all boys. Run by women.

Men arent hesitant to get involved with youth groups out of laziness. Its due to the fact they are automatically perceived as sexual predictors until proven otherwise

Happy to send their boys to the group's for women to run though aren't they. They never step up to volunteer even when the female leaders are begging for help. That'll be the reason then, because they'll be perceived as sexual predators 🙄

[quote somethinginoffensive]^@Shedbuilder sounds great to me, but why should it just be girls/women?^

Look at the massive uproar about golf clubs which wanted to be men only for example.

However there are two female only gyms in my small-ish hone town alone.

Hm, let's just have a little think about the last 1-200 years.

Men used to have all the power, women were excluded from voting, standing in elections, owning property within marriage, being able to graduate at university etc.

Even when those things changed men kept men-only spaces like golf clubs to network in. Strangely enough women struggled to move up in business or politics.

Hence women campaigned for access to these places where power was shared.

Women also want places to exercise where they aren't harassed by men, hence the women only gyms.

Basically, if men could behave as a group like reasonable human beings things would be very different and your arguments might hold some weight.

Until then ....[/quote]
@somethinginoffensive

You release that men and women in the UK essentially got the vote at the same time in the UK? Prior to 1918 only around 6% or people were allowed to vote in the UK, these were male property owners. But despite what feminists like to infer, the overwhelming majority of men were just as screwed.

I have no issue with women's gyms, I have an issue with your inequality that men cant have their own spaces too.

i have no issue with women's gyms, I have an issue with your inequality that men cant have their own spaces too.

They can if they run them. It's hardly a men's space if the activities have to be run by women because men won't do it. The male predator thing doesn't wash. There's plenty of male teachers. Suspect it's more because they can't be bothered and they don't get paid for it.

@Etorih

Scouting has been open to both sexes since the mid 1970's when there was no shortage of male leaders.

From the article:

In 1990 girls were allowed to join all age ranges in some UK scout groups, but it was not until 2007 that the association ruled that girls may join any UK scout group, in any age range.

So really the girls were going the group's that their mothers were running.
My local scout group has about 3 girls. The rest all boys. Run by women.

Men arent hesitant to get involved with youth groups out of laziness. Its due to the fact they are automatically perceived as sexual predictors until proven otherwise

Happy to send their boys to the group's for women to run though aren't they. They never step up to volunteer even when the female leaders are begging for help. That'll be the reason then, because they'll be perceived as sexual predators 🙄

@Etorih

And yet 30 years later no boy can join any age group.

I'm telling you as a man that is the experience, society views you with massive suspicion. You can chose to ignore this but as you'll never experience it. You take a genuine concern and gloss over it with laziness because it doesn't fit your narrative.

@Etorih

i have no issue with women's gyms, I have an issue with your inequality that men cant have their own spaces too.

They can if they run them. It's hardly a men's space if the activities have to be run by women because men won't do it. The male predator thing doesn't wash. There's plenty of male teachers. Suspect it's more because they can't be bothered and they don't get paid for it.

@Etorih I'm telling you as a fact, men (especially male teachers) live in a very difficult world where they are very much at risk of false or misdirected accusations of inappropriate behavior.

It's reached a point now where I wouldn't dream of giving another persons child a hug if they were hurt/crying. I'd probably extend that to (close) female colleagues too.

Oh dear lord, the reason society views many men with suspicion is because they constitute 99% of paedophiles and sexual predators.

We've now got a man who bought an entire bloody school just so he can have a ready supply of children to abuse.

Men can set up any groups they like instead of moaning about the scouts that is only still going because of the women running it and the girls in it.

And men can go to whatever lengths necessary to implement safeguarding. It's not hard.

Men can do safeguarding, you know. There are rules. They don't have to guess.