A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

Whether this particular child is male or female is actually irrelevant, the fact remains that GG , while still advertising as a single sex organisation, are now mixed sex. The problem is that their safeguarding policies will not reflect their mixed sex status. Parents will not be informed if their child will be sharing accommodation/ showers etc with a male child or being supervised in such areas by a male leader, if these individuals identify as girls/women.

@Butterfly44

Did she actually speak to them to hear their voice? Plenty of girls who are tomboys and might get mistaken for a boy because if their hairstyle and clothes. Or they could well be female identifying as male

Well you didn't read the OP's posts then. Yes she spoke to them, low voice was part of the reason she thought it was a boy. No it wasn't a girl adopting male stereotypes, or at least they had long hair. And what could a girl possibly wear to a girl guide meeting that would make people think they were a boy?

@susannaM you are right to be worried but let me assure you and relax your mind a bit..I have ALL the stats since 2001-2020 for AL

IF you want to do something POSITIVE to end this madness?

Inspired by Scots @BDimyon's Petition to UK Parliament Require bio- sex of VATP & sexual offenders to be recorded throughout justice system - police - courts - prisons - probation. Petition past 2,000 within 24 hours

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/590123

GO BACK a second time to check it has "taken" it wont let you vote twice (rightly) but we are getting feedback that sometimes the signature hasnt gone thru and this seems the best way to check.

ALL Brits ANYWHERE...if abroad then it just needs a UK postcode.
We have 180 days to get it around.

Signed @Pommie69

And people please stop with the cis; I find it very offensive

Low voice... in a preteen?

Sure

The speed with which you’ve all got riled up over a kid you’ve never even met and had to make endless assumptions about to fit your anti trans narrative disgusts me

Is there an eye-roll emoji?

🙄

Pro natal woman narrative

@HerrenaHarridan

🙄

Yup, that's the one. Suits you.

@HerrenaHarridan

Low voice... in a preteen?

Sure

The speed with which you’ve all got riled up over a kid you’ve never even met and had to make endless assumptions about to fit your anti trans narrative disgusts me

You've been told, repeatedly, that it's not about an individual. It's about a process that sets fire to the boundaries of girls and women, and then forbids them to talk about it.

This person is symbolic of a policy. You know, we know, the OP knows that no one has even asked the guides if they are male or female.

But it wouldn't even have crossed the OP's mind, if it wasn't for the policy.

You addressing every individual who might be a product of the policy, and asking people to justify their speculation is absolutely pointless.

If this individual turns out to be as female as a female can be, it's still irrelevant to the policy.

Herrera you obviously haven't been around a lot of pre teen boys, many of whom do have deep voiced. My own son's voice dropped before he left primary school.

@HerrenaHarridan

‘You’ve been told’

Shut the fuck up.

This person isn’t symbolic... they are a child

A child who may well simply have been mistaken for a boy by another child or who may be intersex or trans or simply a little masculine presenting.

There is no test guides can give to a child to see if they are girl enough for you.
Nor should they!

Are you cis enough to pass your own tests?

Have you actually had your chromosomes and hormones checked?

Plenty of people get a right shock when they do

Your argument is no one can tell another person's sex?

Got it.

I'm afraid you don't get to dismantle safeguarding by pretending humans can't tell males from females.

I've heard a lot of nonsense, but telling little girls that they mustn't identify the opposite sex, because it's, er impossible, is right up there.

I thought there were some very reasonable posts from people familiar with Guiding suggesting several scenarios where this child could have been a boy in a volunteering capacity. Or it could have been a transgirl. Girls don't generally have low voices. Long hair is not a marker for sex.
The OP's DD was expecting to only find girls in Guides and this person didn't quite fit with those expectations.
Discussion followed...

Herrena why are you assuming the child was a pre-teen, and why are you saying the OP's child was tricked by masculine presentation? It's been established that the child had long hair!

There is no test guides can give to a child to see if they are girl enough for you.

Not sure that's true. It's called a birth certificate, just the same as the one children's schools ask to see to confirm children aren't too young to enrol.

Under 18s can't get Gender Recognition Certificates, so will be using their original certificate.

Have you actually had your chromosomes and hormones checked?

I think life has established beyond all doubt that I do not have a variation/difference of sexual development, although I am wondering about thyroid hormones. Though I'm not sure why it's relevant...

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Herrena why are you assuming the child was a pre-teen, and why are you saying the OP's child was tricked by masculine presentation? It's been established that the child had long hair!

There is no test guides can give to a child to see if they are girl enough for you.

Not sure that's true. It's called a birth certificate, just the same as the one children's schools ask to see to confirm children aren't too young to enrol.

Under 18s can't get Gender Recognition Certificates, so will be using their original certificate.

Have you actually had your chromosomes and hormones checked?

I think life has established beyond all doubt that I do not have a variation/difference of sexual development, although I am wondering about thyroid hormones. Though I'm not sure why it's relevant...

Its so daft.

Despite the 6,500 genetic differences between men and women and millions of years of successful reproduction, not only can we not tell them apart, we can't tell our own sex either 😆

Eyesofdisarray
"cis-" as the Judge at Maja Forstater's otherwise failed action ruled that its application against the wishes of other people was a form of mis-gendering. I hate it too, it implies we have a form of gender identity and I dont, never have, never will. The whole thing is solve by woman noun for female people no gender identity and these here bio-males who for whatever reason think they "gender identify" as a woman but according to some very worn out gender stereotypes.

Shut the fuck up

😳

@Bryonyshcmyony

It's odd that your dd thought this child was a boy. Dd plays football and there are lots of younger girls with short hair who look like boys but it's pretty obvious they are not actually boys

Yes, so the assumption should be the kid thought it was a boy because it was actually a boy?

@HerrenaHarridan, telling other people to shut up, with or without expletives, is not how discussion works, is it?

If you just want to harangue people, you've stumbled into the wrong place. If you want to stay and discuss, you need to follow the guidelines provided.

I'm sure there are quite a few people who wish that Datun would shut up. I for one am glad that she doesn't.

What @DialSquare said 👍

Again (not that the people ranting about how awful it is to comment on this will actually read the thread properly anyway)

The issue is not whether or not the child is male.

The issue is not criticising whether a female child is presenting as sufficiently female.

The issue is, that parents cannot trust GG that all children present will be female.

When they could, no one would have needed to question any child's presentation regardless of what it was because every child present was known to be female.

The reason it matters that parents cannot trust that all the children in the unit are in fact female is (for the OP) that now the realisation is there that she cannot trust in this or even question this, her dd cannot go on residentials and have those GG opportunities so many of us could enjoy as children.

The OP thankfully does not come from a situation where her dd cannot be present in a mixed sex group for a leisure activity, as she would then have to withdraw her dd altogether.

Additional points being noted by commentators: (repeatedly)

• there are many mixed sex groups available to children that offer what GG are offering and where identity makes no difference.

• in order to allow a natal male child's freedom of expression, natal female children are losing their opportunities. They are all losing the experience of a female only group (GG's policy somewhat hypocritically talks at length about why this is important to value for female children). Many will no longer be able to experience camps and residentials because of the very confused boundaries for safeguarding and disregarding of the privacy, dignity and perceptions of natal female children in favour of natal male children. Which is worryingly sexist. And some female children will lose access to any social children's activities at all.

Cue here comments about how misogynist religions shouldn't be allowed anyway in the UK, with total disregard that getting female people of all ages into female only swims, activity groups etc was a major plank in widening female people's lives and opportunities and a step in supporting a move towards the liberation of those female people. But all that's been abandoned because it doesn't fit with the needs of less than 1% of natal male people.

If you're going to be thoroughly rude to female people over this at least understand the basic facts under discussion.

@Redapplewreath

Again (not that the people ranting about how awful it is to comment on this will actually read the thread properly anyway)

The issue is not whether or not the child is male.

The issue is not criticising whether a female child is presenting as sufficiently female.

The issue is, that parents cannot trust GG that all children present will be female.

When they could, no one would have needed to question any child's presentation regardless of what it was because every child present was known to be female.

The reason it matters that parents cannot trust that all the children in the unit are in fact female is (for the OP) that now the realisation is there that she cannot trust in this or even question this, her dd cannot go on residentials and have those GG opportunities so many of us could enjoy as children.

The OP thankfully does not come from a situation where her dd cannot be present in a mixed sex group for a leisure activity, as she would then have to withdraw her dd altogether.

Additional points being noted by commentators: (repeatedly)

• there are many mixed sex groups available to children that offer what GG are offering and where identity makes no difference.

• in order to allow a natal male child's freedom of expression, natal female children are losing their opportunities. They are all losing the experience of a female only group (GG's policy somewhat hypocritically talks at length about why this is important to value for female children). Many will no longer be able to experience camps and residentials because of the very confused boundaries for safeguarding and disregarding of the privacy, dignity and perceptions of natal female children in favour of natal male children. Which is worryingly sexist. And some female children will lose access to any social children's activities at all.

Cue here comments about how misogynist religions shouldn't be allowed anyway in the UK, with total disregard that getting female people of all ages into female only swims, activity groups etc was a major plank in widening female people's lives and opportunities and a step in supporting a move towards the liberation of those female people. But all that's been abandoned because it doesn't fit with the needs of less than 1% of natal male people.

If you're going to be thoroughly rude to female people over this at least understand the basic facts under discussion.

Great summary.

I also want for Datun to never ever shut up.