A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

I should clarify actually.
Parents have told me that they asked if their girls could sleep in a single sex room/tent.
The reply says that they cannot be told if there is a transgirl or transwoman on the event due to privacy.
This is an answer to an entirely different question.
Clearly a parent has the right to expect that the risk assessment will not put their child at risk due to another child running off, another child's special food that their child is allergic to, or a child with night time needs that might wake everyone.
That parent has no right to know which child has the needs.

This is an area I struggle with if I am honest.

I struggle to see a gender confused teenager in the same light as a convicted sex offender using his gender as a tool to continue abusing.

However, I would object to sharing, not because necessarily this boy identified as a girl, but because if their sexual orientation is for females, as teenagers sex can readily happen. GG is not somewhere where you expect your DD to get pregnant.

I live in a different universe.

I struggle to see a gender confused teenager in the same light as a convicted sex offender using his gender as a tool to continue abusing

But the policies for one have a side effect of enabling the other. No one can say no to children which is why the plight of these poor confused children provide the perfect cover/distraction. When really they are just as adversely affected by the lack.of safeguarding as everyone else.

You do have to ask who benefits.

I struggle to see a gender confused teenager in the same light as a convicted sex offender using his gender as a tool to continue abusing.

However, policy also allows males who identify as women to be leaders and to be treated as " female" leaders with, I presume responsibility for supervising sleeping, washing and changing facilities of girls on residential trips?

@chickenyhead

This is an area I struggle with if I am honest.

I struggle to see a gender confused teenager in the same light as a convicted sex offender using his gender as a tool to continue abusing.

However, I would object to sharing, not because necessarily this boy identified as a girl, but because if their sexual orientation is for females, as teenagers sex can readily happen. GG is not somewhere where you expect your DD to get pregnant.

I live in a different universe.

Doesn't a 14 year old girl also deserve dignity and privacy from the opposite sex?

I haven't met many teenagers who see it as an issue of privacy with other teens. Of course, everyone deserves privacy and dignity from others. I'm just not sure that is possible in an institution as long standing as GG to suddenly consider such risks as may result.

@334bu

*I struggle to see a gender confused teenager in the same light as a convicted sex offender using his gender as a tool to continue abusing.*

However, policy also allows males who identify as women to be leaders and to be treated as " female" leaders with, I presume responsibility for supervising sleeping, washing and changing facilities of girls on residential trips?

If there is adequate safeguarding, how is this different to school residential trips with male teachers? The issue is the safeguarding.

@chickenyhead

This is an area I struggle with if I am honest.

I struggle to see a gender confused teenager in the same light as a convicted sex offender using his gender as a tool to continue abusing.

However, I would object to sharing, not because necessarily this boy identified as a girl, but because if their sexual orientation is for females, as teenagers sex can readily happen. GG is not somewhere where you expect your DD to get pregnant.

I live in a different universe.

No, they're not the same. But that doesn't mean that the privacy and dignity of the girl hasn't been affected.

Girls starting menstruation, for instance, would be doing it in front of a boy who has been told he is a girl.

Plus what is misleadingly known as peer on peer abuse and harassment, is rife. As much as we don't want to think about it, it is.

And whether you think that a gender confused boy would be capable of it or not, the girls almost certainly will be in a day-to-day school environment where it is happening to some extent.

They absolutely deserve to be in a female only environment where they can leave that sort of issue behind.

(yes I know girls do it too, but it's overwhelmingly not girls).

And finally, it's the message that says being a girl is a state of mind. Such a concrete state of mind and so easily identifiable, that if a boy has that state of mind he is no longer a boy.

Stephanie Davis Arai, who runs transgender trend, gets thousands of emails from parents and children about this.

She was particularly concerned over the girls who see boys identifying as girls and presenting in an uber feminine way. And then they look down at them self I think if that's what a girl is, what am I?

Whilst also accepting that it's a concept endorsed by adults everywhere. And even a pro girl, pro women, ostensibly feminist organisation actively encourages it.

It's massively damaging.

My teen DD would see this as infringing her privacy. She doesn't really like changing clothes alongside other girls and would probably feel extremely uncomfortable with a male person there too. However nice that person might be.
I'm not sure I follow what you mean here though? Surely with the extensive experience GG has with safeguarding the opposite could and should also apply
I'm just not sure that is possible in an institution as long standing as GG to suddenly consider such risks as may result

GG has always been single sex, now it is single gender. I don't believe that it has adequate safeguarding.

Honestly, I don't know how they can square the circle.

They want to promote girls, increase their self-esteem. It all sounds very feminist and female centred.

Except they also agree that being female is a state of mind. And it's quite possible for a boy to have that state of mind and no longer be a boy. And also for a girl not to have it, and no longer be a girl.

The question I would really like an answer to is what does that state of mind entail? I'd love it if someone could actually describe it. Because the exposure of rank sexism would be instant.

I don't know why their heads don't explode.

@chickenyhead

This is an area I struggle with if I am honest.

I struggle to see a gender confused teenager in the same light as a convicted sex offender using his gender as a tool to continue abusing.

However, I would object to sharing, not because necessarily this boy identified as a girl, but because if their sexual orientation is for females, as teenagers sex can readily happen. GG is not somewhere where you expect your DD to get pregnant.

I live in a different universe.

You do indeed live in another universe. Unfortunately many teen girls live in another world where teen males rape them. Not all obviously but enough that teen girls need some places where they are safe because it isn’t mixed sex spaces like school.

www.itv.com/news/2021-06-09/everyones-invited-names-almost-3000-schools-following-claims-of-sexual-assault-rape-and-harassment

My other universe is one where gender does not equal sex. I am not advocating for it, I am saying male sex and female sex teenagers, without adequate safeguarding is an issue I don't believe GG is set up to handle.

But ok.

@chickenyhead

My other universe is one where gender does not equal sex. I am not advocating for it, I am saying male sex and female sex teenagers, without adequate safeguarding is an issue I don't believe GG is set up to handle.

But ok.

It's not just about the possibility of consensual teenage sex tho.

There are several reasons why a boy might identify as a girl.

This article explains.

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4290818-Petition-Parliament-for-Sex-to-be-recorded-for-all-Violent-Sexual-Offenders-throughout-CJS?msgid=108887804#108887804

Did you see my petition with 20 years of UK MOJ stats (2002-20) that with total consistency "more than 99% of all sexual offenders are MALE"
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/590123

Please sign & circulate, we have 6 months to make it to 100,000 and force a debate in the HOC. Any British resident or any British citizen can sign.

@chickenyhead

My other universe is one where gender does not equal sex. I am not advocating for it, I am saying male sex and female sex teenagers, without adequate safeguarding is an issue I don't believe GG is set up to handle.

But ok.

I think we all agree on that. If you put to one side the choice of GG to admit members on sex and on gender, the potential risks from that are not being admitted let alone addressed. That's the real problem for parents and girls attending. I think at the grass roots levels the Leaders just haven't had to actually put these new scenarios into reality yet. Many units haven't been running properly or at all for more than a year, many have closed, GG are down on volunteer numbers by something like 25% and there have been very few camps in two summers. It just hasn't become a real issue yet. Except for a small number of units with trans members already and again, there's been little face to face activity. I suspect if and when things return more to 'normal' that will be when the likely issues start arising then I would be surprised if GG keep insisting there's nothing to see here. Although equally I would imagine it will be some tweaks in the background rather than any announcements.

This thread has been a bit strange. But what has come out for me is that GG's policy decisions remove the ability to make informed decisions, from parents. I am amazed it is legal for an organisation to run residential trips with communal sleeping, changing and showering, andvtongive the impression this isvfemale only, but to refuse , as a matter of policy, to tell parents whether their daughter will be sharing this with male teenagers or not. But here we are.

But this point runs through absolutely everything in these discussions about gender. The whole thing is built on this, which is a really dodgy foundation:

They want to promote girls, increase their self-esteem. It all sounds very feminist and female centred.

Except they also agree that being female is a state of mind. And it's quite possible for a boy to have that state of mind and no longer be a boy. And also for a girl not to have it, and no longer be a girl.

@Datun

Thanks for the link. I clearly need to read around this a LOT more.

Every convicted sex offender had to start somewhere. They aren't born with convictions, after all. And for every gender-confused teen there's potentially a predatory male who sees a way to get close to girls by posing as one.

How could anyone possibly tell the difference? How could little girls tell the difference? How could anyone tell until it was too late?

If there is adequate safeguarding, how is this different to school residential trips with male teachers? The issue is the safeguarding.
The safeguarding in the above case is that there will be female teachers to look after the girls. In the case of a transwoman guide leader, they may be considered to be the "female" leader who will look after the girls.

Does anyone know what would happen at international camps, where women and girls come from all over the world?

@toomanytrees

Does anyone know what would happen at international camps, where women and girls come from all over the world?

They would be led to think that UK Guiding is girls only. The same would apply if a UK group goes to Our Cabaña or Sangam.

@Pommie69

Have signed and thank you. The recording of male crime as female crime is something that really worries me.

Did she actually speak to them to hear their voice? Plenty of girls who are tomboys and might get mistaken for a boy because if their hairstyle and clothes. Or they could well be female identifying as male

Did she actually speak to them to hear their voice? Plenty of girls who are tomboys and might get mistaken for a boy because if their hairstyle and clothes. Or they could well be female identifying as male

Or maybe the ops child read the situation correctly and saw a male identifying as a female.