A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

@Coyoacan Oh dear. I didn't know that. I'm really sorry to hear that.

Have you considered moving your daughter to the scouts? I used to be a Beaver leader and it's a lot of fun. In Scouts we're completely neurotic about safeguarding (in the nicest possible way).

You daughter would be very safe there. Also she is guaranteed to meet boys and get to understand them in a safe and supervised environment, which is actually pretty cool.

If you have any questions about Scouting I'd be glad to try and answer. The badges are really good I think.

@TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross

You are allowed to have women only groups. But including men who identify as women in that.

So what is the definition of "woman" in relation to these women only groups of which you speak?

This was in response to someone saying single sex groups were illegal, btw.

I’ve just just said what the definition is, haven’t I? Women or those who identify as women?

I’m not making a statement on this situation, just stating what it is.

@4PawsGood

That doesn't make sense. You can't "identify" as your sex. You simple are your sex.

If you can identify as either sex then single sex spaces couldn't possibly exist.

GG has chosen to allow 'transgirls' and transwomen in. That isn't in itself a problem.

However with doing that it hasn't updated its safeguarding practices to keep the sexes separate on camping.
In fact it has done worse than that, it has gone down a 'remove informed consent' route whereby it won't tell the parents or the girls if they will be sharing with an opposite sex guide, nor whether the overall leader (who in the past had to be a woman) might in fact by a transwoman.

Scouts is mixed sex but has kept safeguarding.

What guides has done is throwing safeguarding out of the window.

@4PawsGood

What do you think of that definition? Anyone who identifies as a woman/girl is a woman/girl?

My DS came home after a talk in school and wondered if a boy in his class might be a girl because that particular boy had an interest that DS thought of a “girly”. (Thank you external speaker).

Do you think that if DS’ friend or DS would identify as girls, they would fit into girl guides? Before I had my clarifying talk with DS, I am sure he would have been able to tell them how to “do girly” better as well.

[quote BatmansBat]@4PawsGood

What do you think of that definition? Anyone who identifies as a woman/girl is a woman/girl?

My DS came home after a talk in school and wondered if a boy in his class might be a girl because that particular boy had an interest that DS thought of a “girly”. (Thank you external speaker).

Do you think that if DS’ friend or DS would identify as girls, they would fit into girl guides? Before I had my clarifying talk with DS, I am sure he would have been able to tell them how to “do girly” better as well.[/quote]
I was replying to the poster who said single sex groups weren’t allowed. That was all. I specifically haven’t said I agree with it. I didn’t make the policy up, why are you arguing with me about it?

I’ve already said this. Twice.

[quote GromblesofGrimbledon]@4PawsGood

That doesn't make sense. You can't "identify" as your sex. You simple are your sex.

If you can identify as either sex then single sex spaces couldn't possibly exist. [/quote]
@GromblesofGrimbledon

I have said quite a few times that I was just commenting on the statement that single sex groups aren’t allowed.

I haven’t said whether I agree with the GG policy.

Why are you arguing with me?

Single sex groups that are genuinely single sex are also allowed.

I'm not arguing with your personal opinions or whether or not you agree with the policy. I'm saying it makes no sense to say single sex spaces are allowed because self-identifying women can join women's groups/clubs/spaces and that means they are still single sex.

Unless I'm missing your point.

I'm stating this regardless of your own personal opinions.

@KatieAlcock

Single sex groups that are genuinely single sex are also allowed.

They are and so they should be. But with organist playing fast and loose with the definition of single sex and keeping everything suspiciously hush hush from members, you can see why women are concerned.

It's becoming harder and harder to keep single sex spaces just that: single sex. No men in any way shape or form.

That should say organisations not "organists"

I am still reeling in shock from the thread on Queen Ethelberga School (in chat). It seems that a pervert went to extreme lengths to access children. This included buying a school through a legally complex structure, putting himself as chair of the governors (so responsible for safeguarding), installing 700 (?) CCTV cameras around the school (including where girls got changed) and finally sexually assaulting children.

What assurances do we have that predatory males don’t pretend that they are trans? Especially with all the worry about insulting genuine trans people (which I do understand) and the push for acceptance of everyone stating that they are women. To just state that you are a woman is vastly simpler than what the pervert with the school did.

I would like to ask @KatieAlcock , what autonomy to the GG have to refuse /accept leaders who claim to be transwomen?

What are the safeguarding principles that needs to be followed and how can perverts pretending to be trans be detected?

What are the policies for DRS checks given that some people don’t want to be “dead named”?

Finally, once a transwoman volunteer is accepted, what are the rules around changing areas and sleeping arrangement on residentials?

(Sorry, my head is spinning at the moment)

In case there are people who don't know, it's perfectly legal to run services for women or girls only.

NIA is one such organisation. They provide services for women and girls who have been subjected to domestic and sexual violence.

They say:

We utilise the single sex exemptions to ensure that our refuges, women’s centre and group work are women-only. This is lawful under Paragraph 27, Part 7, Schedule 3 of the Equality Act 2010.

Girl Guides also know this is perfectly possible.

They deliberately choose to ignore it.

I think GG like many organisations were advised on inclusion issues in expectation that self ID would become law. It hasn't and under this Government isn't likely to now either.
In anticipation of this - policies and words were changed. I think they continue to be poorly advised and have increasingly doubled down.
Membership of Guiding is dependant on a number of factors. Rules and compliance are at the heart of it. Presumably if they made changes to their rules that affected who could be members, then members not meeting those rules cease to be members.
If those changes were considered to be unfair or illegally discriminatory presumably there could be legal redress?
Having found themselves between a rock and a hard place I think GG will need to lose in court to allow them room to change.

I do know it is perfectly legal and that is what makes me so angry that I am almost breaking my phone typing this.

We are being told by various organisations and posters here that is isn’t legal. Deliberately misrepresenting the law.

We are allegedly accepting men who self identify as women into single gender organisations. I have no idea if these men have to do anything more that stating that they are women. There seem to be no safeguarding considerations at all for these cases.

And women who want to be kind to dysphoric transwomen send their children there. And encourage other women to send their children there.

Without stopping for a minute to think whether the Self-ID is able to separate lovely, dysphoric women from perverts. Or how safeguarding will work once the are accepted as women.

And threads are being reported and posts deleted so it is difficult to discuss without tying ourselves in verbal knots.

I just want to scream.

It was a terrible decision to allow ‘trans girls’ in to GG. Our local group have quite a number of Muslim girls who cover their hair in a mixed sex group and aren’t permitted to stay overnight where males would be there.

If a trans-identifying male joined, they would have to leave.

Single sex spaces are important for girls for a variety of reasons.

OP's child would probably be happier, and definitely safer, in a Scout troop where nobody is pretending that the boys are anything but boys and the safe-guarding is done rigorously.

There are no single-sex spaces in Guiding. Or rather the meaning of single-sex has been so eroded that it is essentially meaningless.

If children with penises can identify in and be recognised and welcomed as girls while the group is officially still single-sex, safe-guarding is equally meaningless.

@BatmansBat I'm not completely sure of the DBS implications but GG would have been perfectly within their rights not to accept transgirls and transwomen.
Most girls' schools accept transboys but not transgirls. The same is true of boys' schools e.g. Eton.
World Rugby only allows biological women to take part in elite women's rugby.
A few women's refuge services use single sex exemptions (including the legal use of exemptions to exclude those legally female who hold a GRC).
@Datun has mentioned NIA also.

@BatmansBat

I am still reeling in shock from the thread on Queen Ethelberga School (in chat). It seems that a pervert went to extreme lengths to access children. This included buying a school through a legally complex structure, putting himself as chair of the governors (so responsible for safeguarding), installing 700 (?) CCTV cameras around the school (including where girls got changed) and finally sexually assaulting children.

What assurances do we have that predatory males don’t pretend that they are trans? Especially with all the worry about insulting genuine trans people (which I do understand) and the push for acceptance of everyone stating that they are women. To just state that you are a woman is vastly simpler than what the pervert with the school did.

I would like to ask @KatieAlcock , what autonomy to the GG have to refuse /accept leaders who claim to be transwomen?

What are the safeguarding principles that needs to be followed and how can perverts pretending to be trans be detected?

What are the policies for DRS checks given that some people don’t want to be “dead named”?

Finally, once a transwoman volunteer is accepted, what are the rules around changing areas and sleeping arrangement on residentials?

(Sorry, my head is spinning at the moment)

Crikey, I had no idea about this school. I'm not in the market for a school, so even it's advertising passed me by.

It's mind-boggling. And yes, it pisses me off that people say no man would identify as a woman to get to children. It's nonsense. This man bought an entire school. Men have been found in septic tanks trying to spy on women. They have confessed to joining the police, in order to access teenage girl victims.

A sexually motivated drive is very commonly all consuming.

And no, I'm not suggesting all transwomen are sexual perverts.

But when you have a policy that says any man can access an almost unlimited number of girls, purely by saying some words out loud, it doesn't really matter. It's about how many perverts are going to take advantage of it.

It's not as though they have to go to the trouble of buying a school, either.

What do Scouting do if a trans girl goes camping? Which tent do they sleep in?

A sexually motivated drive is very commonly all consuming.

Yes. Given that males in all walks of life and all ages from barely in the teens to very old age are convicted of sex offences, it seems to override just about any other consideration for some men/boys. Even those who've worked hard for years to build a good career will put it at risk. I expect it's possible that that very risk adds spice for some of them.

Of course, they have the very great advantage of knowing that people who experience sexual assault and other sex offences often don't report it from a misplaced sense of shame and guilt that they must somehow have brought it on themselves. Plus, those who do report it are mostly not believed/taken seriously, so the perpetrators get away with it most of the time, and that is another deterrent to reporting these offences in the first place.

@GrassPollenIsTheDeathStar

What do Scouting do if a trans girl goes camping? Which tent do they sleep in?

The one they feel like sleeping in. However, because parents know it's mixed sex, they are more likely to say "my daughter is only allowed to sleep in a tent with other female children" and leaders would be more awake to the fact they could get in trouble if they lie to parents.

Mixed sleeping arrangements are discussed on a case by case basis in Scouting (which may well not be a good thing as parents are then more inclined to ask their Cub daughter who may feel pressurised to say yes).

@KatieAlcock

What happens if you tell guides that on no account must their daughter share with male? (Assuming you would even know it's possible).

Parents have tried this and been told they could not be made aware before the child goes on a joint residential. One parent wrote to me about a large scale residential her daughter's unit were going on (girls and leaders sleeping in large tents, probably 100+ people going and likely a whole county invited). She was told that she couldn't be told "due to privacy".
There is, of course, no need to tell the girls that any child is trans, as girls will be treated differently to other girls for many different reasons related to protected characteristics e.g. disability, health, religion. A girl does not need a badge saying "I have ASD and am a serial runner-offer so I need an adult with me 1:1" in order for her and other girls to be kept safe.

Girls do not need to be told if other girls are trans; I am sure most parents are not that worried if another girls identifies as a boy. They will however want to know if it is a mixed sex event.