A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

@AliceMcK

My dd cut all her hair off into a really short pixi, lots of people thought she was a boy, I remember waiting for her after brownies one day when another child said why is there a boy in there, her mother started going on about the whole trans thing, we’d had an email about it not long before, I never said a word just waited for her reaction when my dd came out and cuddled me.

Goodness, 'lots of people' thought she was a boy because she had short hair. Amazing, as hair length doesn't make anyone a biological boy or girl. Was she new to the area and people didn't know her? Or were they a very gender oriented group where your hair length signified a certain sex only. Did they think the same if she wore trousers? I had different length's of hair as a child and no one ever thought I was a different sex depending on hair length.

These are the facts.

When has that ever got in the way of TRAs?

Good point about the criminal record checks. And now we have optional DBS checking on "dead" names. No room for abuse in that system, huh?

I feel that Victoria Wood could have written an excellent sketch about octogenarians pontificating over Ru Paul's Drag Race, whilst sucking the filling out of individual fruit pies.

@Etorih

They are as entitled as girls to have a boys only club but no, girls are welcomed at Cubs and Scouts and not the reverse. That is clearly discrimination against boys

They probably could have kept going single sex if more boys wanted to do it and the dads had stepped up to run it. Here, the beavers, cubs and scouts are run entirely by women. Ive never seen a dad step up to do it, even when vacancies have become available. Without the women, i doubt there would be scouts etc any more.

Gawd, really? That pisses me right off.

So girls saved the scouts, entirely. The women have sustained it, entirely. And yet people come on here and bang on about it not being fair that they have to include females. Without whom they wouldn't have a group in the first place.

People are so keen to blame women for everything. Yes, I know, patriarchy, innit. But even so.

And yes, the American map of the scouts and all the sex offending is breathtaking.

@Cailleach1 My dd, as a five-month-old baby, would get very excited when she saw a boy and I never once saw her mistakenly getting excited over a short-haired girl in trousers even though there were lots in those days.

So girls saved the scouts, entirely. The women have sustained it, entirely. And yet people come on here and bang on about it not being fair that they have to include females. Without whom they wouldn't have a group in the first place

Interesting isnt it. When i lost my dh some years back one of the things that took up too much space in my head at the time was who would go camping with my ds at cubs now dh has gone. I spent a great deal of time worrying about this as I didn't want Ds to miss out because he didn't have a grown up male to go with.

Turns out that was one of the things i didnt need to worry about. All staffed by women. And generally it was mainly the mums who went camping with their sons, rather than the dads. 🤷

@Hoosi

DD describe them as older, tall, long hair, low voice. She didn’t know their name, and didn’t assume it was a boy because of short hair

From this comment OP I would suggest that they are likely a Duke of Edinburgh volunteer. I frequently have male D of E volunteers help with Guides (often because their mum/auntie/or whoever runs the unit) volunteering opportunities are so hard to come by (especially presently!)

Just ask the leaders. They definitely won't want you to feel uncomfortable. A space where your daughter feels safe and comfortable will be the leaders number one priority (and by extension that means you as her mum being comfortable)

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

When you say 'wrong', Bbq1, what do you mean? The Scouts was a boys' only organisation with all-male leadership, membership and volunteers. In modern times, they couldn't make it financially viable on that model, so opened up to girls and presumably are now solvent.

Should they have carried on as they were until they went bust? What did you personally do to help them carry on as a boys' only group?

In days of yore when I did a lot of voluntary work it really ground my gears when armchair commentators explained what we 'should' be doing, while doing not a hand's turn towards keeping our activities going.

If you think boys need single sex groups, off you go and start one.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g I actually did 10 years volunteering for the Guiding /Scouting association so before you accuse people of being "armchair commentators" and not doing "a hands turn", please check your facts. You aren't the only one who has done voluntary work in the past.

@TedImgoingmad

I hope that things change and you feel comfortable to stay on.

In that case, apologies, @Bbq1. I'm afraid I was catapulted right back to the days of the toddler group where two or three of us did all the work and a couple of dozen others just sat and complained about the quality of the coffee.

In that case, apologies, @Bbq1. I'm afraid I was catapulted right back to the days of the toddler group where two or three of us did all the work and a couple of dozen others just sat and complained about the quality of the coffee.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

I suspect the number of men willing to act as Scout Leaders dropped markedly when criminal record checks and safeguarding policies arrived.

CRB only picks up if someone has been caught. As posters on this forum know well, most sex offenders get away with it.

@Etorih

So girls saved the scouts, entirely. The women have sustained it, entirely. And yet people come on here and bang on about it not being fair that they have to include females. Without whom they wouldn't have a group in the first place

Interesting isnt it. When i lost my dh some years back one of the things that took up too much space in my head at the time was who would go camping with my ds at cubs now dh has gone. I spent a great deal of time worrying about this as I didn't want Ds to miss out because he didn't have a grown up male to go with.

Turns out that was one of the things i didnt need to worry about. All staffed by women. And generally it was mainly the mums who went camping with their sons, rather than the dads. 🤷

I'm sorry for your loss Etorih. One never knows what one is going to think of when that happens.

And it's a shame, isn't it, that more men haven't stepped up.

Positive male role models for boys would be very useful.

Positive male role models for boys would be very useful.

Yes. I wish more decent men would step up and be positive role models for boys.

@Shedbuilder

OP, the first two responses to you post are from a very vocal trans supporter and someone who appears to have joined MN yesterday. Lots of other people on here telling you to chill, it's not a problem are names I don't recognise — and I've only been posting here for a year or so.

There are some strange things going on on this board. Yesterday about 20 people had signed a letter from a clearly right-wing, Christian and very probably homophobic organisation.

Seems to me that since MNHQ separated Sex and Gender from the rest of feminism, there seems to have been an outbreak of new posters telling feminists that they're not seeing what they're seeing...

Okay. That explains a lot. I am a relatively new poster but even I found some aspects of this thread strange. Still, the great thing about mumsnet is that it is hard to derail intelligent discussion. I value knowing about different perspectives, but evidence and logic tends to lead here unlike other social media environments and I suspect the structure makes disingenuous contributions easier to spot.

I must say, for boys that are doing sports, they do have a lot of single sex opportunities with fabulous coaches.

DS plays both football and cricket outside school and it is mostly boys only and amazing, male coaches who really care about the boys.

Girls don’t really have the same. We do netball (which also is exclusively single sex) but that really isn’t for everyone. It seems more skill based and competitive (counterintuitive) and I can see how less sporty girls would be put off by it. There is less scope for just having fun with the ball which many football camps seem to be.

I think guides seem to be an amazing opportunity for the girls that are more shy and less sporty. It is such a shame if they are made to be mixed.

We have girls in our Beavers' colony. Boys can join brownies. It's not a problem or indicative of any gender or identity issues.

Still, the great thing about mumsnet is that it is hard to derail intelligent discussion. I value knowing about different perspectives, but evidence and logic tends to lead here unlike other social media environments and I suspect the structure makes disingenuous contributions easier to spot.

Yes. It's the reason its's so relentlessly targeted. Transactivists on Twitter make no secret of their campaigns to shut mumsnet down.

@sanityisamyth

We have girls in our Beavers' colony. Boys can join brownies. It's not a problem or indicative of any gender or identity issues.

No, boys can't join Brownies. Girl Guiding is only for girls, biological or self-identifying. Scouts/Cubs/Beavers is for both boys and girls.

sanityisamyth, do you think it is good that it is mixed?

Our children do many activities that is mainly single sex but they don’t really need it. Our girls are tough, happy to play football with the boys, very competitive and talk a lot. I have seen many shy, uncertain girls that I think would benefit immensely from a more supportive and less competitive environment. The dynamic is very difficult when boys are present.

No, boys can't join Brownies. Girl Guiding is only for girls, biological or self-identifying. Scouts/Cubs/Beavers is for both boys and girls

Exactly

@sanityisamyth

We have girls in our Beavers' colony. Boys can join brownies. It's not a problem or indicative of any gender or identity issues.

Boys can join brownies

You are correct only insofar as the boy in question identifies as a girl. Biological boys who identify as boys cannot join Brownies, Rainbows, Guides or Rangers.

The first night I went to guides I was really perplexed because one of the guides "was a boy". I remember going home and telling my Mum about it.

The "boy" however, was in fact definitely a girl. She was called Lynn and went on to be happily married to a lovely chap, and she had two children. She just looked really like a boy.

It was a bit like George in the Famous Five, if you know those stories. I mean sometimes girls can look really like boys and behave really like boys, and actually be definitely girls.

I think you could probably ring up the leader and ask as well and it would be fine.

If there was any concern at all about residentials then they would be all over it They are very careful about stuff like that.

No, boys can't join Brownies. Girl Guiding is only for girls, biological or self-identifying

Some boys can join guides but boys who identify as boys are discriminated on the basis of gender reassignment and not allowed to join.

[quote GromblesofGrimbledon]@TedImgoingmad

I hope that things change and you feel comfortable to stay on. [/quote]
Thank you @GromblesofGrimbledon. They have just done a consultation and doubled down on it all, even though they had a perfect chance to do a bit of back tracking. The problem they have is, if they do backtrack, how do the deal with the trans girls and trans women they have already allowed to join the organisation.

@StrongLegs The problem is that GG has thrown safeguarding out the window and is not careful at all. In fact being careful is frowned upon.

1. Males are accepted as guides and leaders if they say they are girls and women.

2. Parents are not allowed to know if there is a male guide or leader, not even on trips away.

Scouts, etc. that are officially mixed sex, have all the necessary safeguarding in place, but GG is still ostensibly single sex and only has safeguarding in place for boys and men who accept that they are male.