A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

@Datun

Of course. This is historical. I think we've reached a point now where it's easy to see who would be taking the piss in that regard. I think we've lost something in going too far the other way.

I would like to see a return of more men's and women's spaces. Women's spaces we have plenty of. Men's spaces are looked upon with suspicion. I think this is detrimental to society now.

Brownies and Girl Guides, Boy Scouts and The Boys Brigade should remain sex-segregated. And many other clubs should remain mixed-sex. If the demand is there, there won't be a problem.

My school growing up in the 90s was unusual in that our playgrounds were still separated into boys and girls. It was an old Victorian building and the entrances were on separate sides of the building with "boys" and "girls" carved into the sandstone above the doors. Had you put it to the girls at that time the suggestion of opening the playgrounds for mixing, we would have been horrified at the idea. No one wanted to mix with the boys. We liked our space. Even as a self-identified Tom Boy I liked things just as they were. Of course, we all played together after school quite happily. That's of no consequence really. Just a little memory of when things weren't so complicated.

Just a little memory of when things weren't so complicated.

I hear ya.

OP has started nothing like a great fucking flap, she sounds pretty calm and sorted about it and was just asking some advice.
Datun you are spot on.

@WithANameLikeDaniCalifornia

It could be a little girl with short hair or a girl that has a face like a boy. That’d be really great for a little girls self esteem to find out people doubt her sex because she’s not dainty or feminine enough 🙄

If you read the OP's posts, you will find that the person has long hair and a low voice.

They are also described as "older", though we don't know how much by (could be a male teenager helping out as part of DofE for example who wouldn't be permitted on residentials).

HerrenaHarridan
I have done a bunch of child protection training

And yet you still don't get it, clearly. As for the OP starting a 'great fucking flap'... No, she's just asked for views and advice. But I see where you're coming from.

@Datun

Just a little memory of when things weren't so complicated.

I hear ya.

Ah yes, back in the good old days when gender non-conformity was punished by social ostracism, and trans people were marginalised to the extent they were practically invisible.

@BlueberryCheezecake

Did you grow up in the 90s of some parallel universe?

In my last post I stated I was as gender non-conforming as they come. I called myself John and spent many years of my childhood essentially "living as a boy" as they'd say now.

No one ostracised me or bothered me. I had the best childhood ever and am fiercely nostalgic about it.

I am sure with some adaptation residential trips could be safe for all.
@chickenyhead I'm sure that measures to ensure safeguarding on mixed-sex residentials can indeed be implemented. Most youth organisations have done it. But until safeguards are in place, mixed-sex residentials should not happen. GGUK's current policy seems to be to continue pretending to be single-sex while admitting both, therefore they won't have those policies in place.

Only invisible if you didn't watch Corrie

It's not that BlueberryCheezecake. People yearn for a time when things weren't quite as complicated. It's called nostalgia. Nostalgia isn't noted for its accuracy.

And gender nonconformity, especially sartorially, is relentlessly targeted now. Gender nonconforming girls are often asked if they're actually boys.

The Tavistock thought there would be no gay children left. It doesn't get more gender nonconforming than being gay.

I merely pointed out that statistically a kid that another kid meets in an all girl setting is not "more likely" to be a boy.
You're doing your stats wrong.
The question is not whether a random kid that her daughter met is trans. It's about this specific kid, who's stood out as apparently male despite OP's daughter only expecting females, despite having long hair (so she's not just taken a passing glance and gone on hairstyle). What's more likely, a girl looking that convincingly male, or one transgirl being part of a pack or guides? Surely the latter.

Or read the Famous Five (first published in 1942)

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Only invisible if you didn't watch Corrie

#whereareallthehayleycroppers?

Good old Hayley wouldn't have whipped the boaby out in front of ladies.

All these new posters. Must be a massive coincidence!

@GromblesofGrimbledon my local primary (built 1910) still has "Genethod a Babanod" (girls and infants) over one door, and "Bechgyn" (boys) over the other. No idea when exactly the division ceased to exist in practice.

Grumbles You might have been very lucky about where you lived and where you went to school. A boy I knew tried to dress as a girl, got regularly beaten up and threatened by groups of boys for being I quote ‘gay’. Skirt pulled up, pants pulled down.Horrendous ignorance and I can remember most of the local fathers just said kids would stop beating him up if he stopped behaving like I quote ‘a little fag’
So I think your experience is rarer than you think.

Aw thanks, @GromblesofGrimbledon, just a small homage to my Dark Overlord, Glinner.

My DS gets mistake for a girl all the time and has for 10 years, its not his fault other people jump to stupid conclusions about his gender just because his face is soft featured and pretty and he doesnt have a number 1 buzzcut.

I imagine there are girls who get the opposit... short hair and tomboy might make people assume boy.

Also pretty sure groups cant discriminate anymore, there maybe boys there... maybe he attends with his sister or his best friend is a girl or its the only group in the area he enjoys.

Jumping to the wierd conclusion of 'trans' rather than the 2 obvious options of A) a girl your daughter mistakenly took for a boy or B) an actual boy is bizaare.

@CaraherEIL

Grumbles You might have been very lucky about where you lived and where you went to school. A boy I knew tried to dress as a girl, got regularly beaten up and threatened by groups of boys for being I quote ‘gay’. Skirt pulled up, pants pulled down.Horrendous ignorance and I can remember most of the local fathers just said kids would stop beating him up if he stopped behaving like I quote ‘a little fag’ So I think your experience is rarer than you think.

Yeh life can be bloody hard. I've had my share of horrible scrapes for other reasons, so I wouldn't say lucky. But lucky where that specific issue is concerned, yes.

I'm not seeing how this equates to males having the right to access female spaces though.

But as always, kids should be taught to be tolerant and kind to others. That's an ongoing battle in society in general and pretty much goes without saying. We keep plugging at it.

[quote TedImgoingmad]Aw thanks, @GromblesofGrimbledon, just a small homage to my Dark Overlord, Glinner.

The other child has long hair, people. Long hair.

Anecdotes about how once your nan/four year old/concussed cousin mistook Annie Lennox for a man are irrelevant.

@WithANameLikeDaniCalifornia

It could be a little girl with short hair or a girl that has a face like a boy. That’d be really great for a little girls self esteem to find out people doubt her sex because she’s not dainty or feminine enough 🙄

What is a "face like a boy"?

How about the self esteem of biological girls who are told by biological men/boys who identify as women/girls that they aren't doing femininity properly? What do I tell my "tomboy" girl guides who may feel insecure about their looks/development, who are faced daily with plastic, pneumatic pop stars, tiktok influencers and the like? How do I tell them they are doing "girling" just right, when a boy performing his version of tiktok"femininity" - all long hair, nail varnish and pink - turns up?

I think the OP is right to have concerns:

• GG have set up a situation where they give the impression of being single sex, whilst not being single sex
• They have done away with basic safeguarding such as single sex facilities on camps
• they have a don't tell other parents or girls policy, thus meaning parents can't even give informed consent

Scouts choosing to be mixed sex is a complete red herring

• parents know it is mixed sex
• they have (as far as I am aware) kept basic safeguarding in place

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I tend to think that a ten year old girl can tell boys and girls apart. Come on. She could have made a mistake, but that's very unlikely. Especially as she was clear the child had long hair. This isn't a confused four year old who doesn't realise girls can have short hair!

It's quite possibly a boy who was only there because he was with a Brownie helper, though.

Fully grown adults still regularly get my teen DS sex wrong upon meeting him and apart from having curly hair and the features god gave him theres nothing remotely feminin about him.

I can tell you for a fact a shit tonne of 10 year old struggled to tell... its not something that only effects little children lol.

short hair and tomboy might make people assume boy.

Also pretty sure groups cant discriminate anymore, there maybe boys there

Have you read any of this thread?