A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her

So why are you fucking asking

Ah yes, back in the good old days when gender non-conformity was punished by social ostracism, and trans people were marginalised to the extent they were practically invisible.

Hardly invisible. The 70s and 80s were the era of gender non conformity. Boys dressed as girls / girls dressed as boys. Transexuals lived amongst women quite happily. The big difference between now and then is the many 'gender non conformists' today only care about what they want, eroding women and children's safeguards in the process.

A mans cock in a childs face? No problem. Women having to undress with males watching? Sure thing.
Women housed in prisons with rapists? Yep go for it.
Men participating in womens sports and winning their scholarships and medals? Oh well. Sports boring anyway right...

People back then knew and understood the reason for sex segregated space. Many people today dont have a clue. That certainly aint progress. Its a war on the safeguards and protections of women and children.

What adults are these? Could you break it down by demographic? Are they, for example, men? Women?

What context are they meeting him in, and for how long at a time?

And again, I think people who think a boy is female because he has long hair is a different kettle of fish from... a girl who expects to meet only girls, who meets a child with long (so stereotypically feminine hair style) hair and is still certain that the child is a boy.

The first is people making lazy assumptions on fashion. The second is a peraon who ignored the fashion marker.

@TeenMinusTests

I think the OP is right to have concerns:

• GG have set up a situation where they give the impression of being single sex, whilst not being single sex
• They have done away with basic safeguarding such as single sex facilities on camps
• they have a don't tell other parents or girls policy, thus meaning parents can't even give informed consent

Scouts choosing to be mixed sex is a complete red herring

• parents know it is mixed sex
• they have (as far as I am aware) kept basic safeguarding in place

Very true.

There should be single sex spaces, mixed sex spaces, and transparency at all times.

@CaraherEIL

Grumbles You might have been very lucky about where you lived and where you went to school. A boy I knew tried to dress as a girl, got regularly beaten up and threatened by groups of boys for being I quote ‘gay’. Skirt pulled up, pants pulled down.Horrendous ignorance and I can remember most of the local fathers just said kids would stop beating him up if he stopped behaving like I quote ‘a little fag’ So I think your experience is rarer than you think.

That's dreadful, but the huge difference between Grumbles' experience and that of the boy you knew is what sex they each were. Most people have always been able to cope with girls dressing and behaving like boys, especially before puberty.

Many people, though, come down very hard on boys, doing anything that strays from the very narrow acceptable bounds of masculine behaviour.

It feels like some see a boy misidentified as a girl as somehow tainted.

Look at baby names. Parents quite often choose a name that used to be used for boys and give it to a girl. They hardly ever do the reverse.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

The other child has long hair, people. Long hair.

Anecdotes about how once your nan/four year old/concussed cousin mistook Annie Lennox for a man are irrelevant.

Can I share the story of how my wee granny thinks Mrs Brown is really a woman?

@dworky

All these new posters. Must be a massive coincidence!

Can you elaborate on "massive coincidence"?

It's already been explained that this thread has come up on trending/active.

Anyone can post.

Elsewhere on FWR, posters are complaining that a thread has been moved from AIBU, thus reducing the audience. So the fact that this one seems to to have attracted a wider audience is a good thing surely.

Oi you lot! Stop calling me Grumbles!

...Grumbles to self in the corner...

Sorry, Grombles!

Grombles

Is it possible your granny has a cunning plan™️ to persuade you into getting her a new HD TV?

Tangentially, why is that programme not cancelled yet for transphobia?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Grombles

Is it possible your granny has a cunning plan™️ to persuade you into getting her a new HD TV?

Tangentially, why is that programme not cancelled yet for transphobia?

She thinks Lily Savage is a woman too.

She's not very bright my wee granny.

@Fruityfriday

Can someone please clarify why its OK for girls to join beavers and cubs, but boys shouldn't be guides?

They are separate organisations.

Crowdfunder time! For Grombles' granny! New HD tv and a trip to Barnard Castle to test her eyesight!

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Crowdfunder time! For Grombles' granny! New HD tv and a trip to Barnard Castle to test her eyesight!

Granbles.

Maybe she's just ahead of the curve for her generation and very accepting of gender fluidity.

Crowdfunder time! For Grombles' granny! New HD tv and a trip to Barnard Castle to test her eyesight!^

Grombles
I was just citing a very different experience also although you pretended that you were a boy and called yourself John you didn’t try and use the boys side of the playground and enjoyed having separate areas from the boys. So you may have dressed as a boy but you didn’t want to use boys toilets and play in their playground. You wanted to be with the girls and use the facilities provided for them.
The single sex spaces that are so readily available for women are the ones that can now be used by men and boys identifying as female and everything seems to be set up to allow that to happen. It has ceased to be about acceptance and give and take it seems as if female boundaries that provided safety for our female children are being eroded and to even suggest that that should be questioned or monitored is outrageous

Please tell me, Grombles that you have introduced your granny to Ru Paul's Drag Race.

@CaraherEIL

Grombles I was just citing a very different experience also although you pretended that you were a boy and called yourself John you didn’t try and use the boys side of the playground and enjoyed having separate areas from the boys. So you may have dressed as a boy but you didn’t want to use boys toilets and play in their playground. You wanted to be with the girls and use the facilities provided for them. The single sex spaces that are so readily available for women are the ones that can now be used by men and boys identifying as female and everything seems to be set up to allow that to happen. It has ceased to be about acceptance and give and take it seems as if female boundaries that provided safety for our female children are being eroded and to even suggest that that should be questioned or monitored is outrageous

I'm with you 100%

I never tried to access boys' spaces and I grew out of the phase quite easily as a teenager because my parents were sensible. They did not call me John and they never told me I was anything other than a girl. Other than that they just let me get on with it.

Nowadays they'd probably have social work at their door for such abuse.

@TedImgoingmad

Please tell me, Grombles that you have introduced your granny to Ru Paul's Drag Race.

I fear that would probably spell the end of GranblesofGranbledon. She's delicate these days.

Back to OP's original question. First I would see for myself by briefly attending the meeting. Then I would contact the leader to say you were surprised to find a boy in the unit, explaining that you thought it was a girls only organization. No need to be confrontational, but just asking for information. You don't need to use the word "trans" as it is irrelevant. If they lie and tell you there are no boys in the unit, you know where you stand and can make decisions accordingly.

If organizations are "pretending", we should make them say it out loud and not just pussy foot around the issue. By contacting the leaders you also put them on notice in the nicest possible way that you are aware of what is going on.

I wouldn't worry about it. Cubs and scouts are boys and girls and there were no issues even for residential trips.

To be fair Hilary Benn is an exception

@tempester28

I wouldn't worry about it. Cubs and scouts are boys and girls and there were no issues even for residential trips.

Of course there weren't. They followed safeguarding, had separate tents and separate washrooms. Guides doesn't.

@tempester28

Your point has been covered up thread, the difference is that Cubs and scouts are openly mixed sex and have systems and rules in place to deal with being mixed sex.

GG is just for girls, except they have, erm, widened the definition of girls to include boys. I am not sure that they have the established systems and controls in place to safeguard (natal) girls like scouts do.

@tempester28

I wouldn't worry about it. Cubs and scouts are boys and girls and there were no issues even for residential trips.

How many times? Scouts is a completely different organisation to Guides, with different set of rules. Scout rules acknowledge and deal with the fact that it is a mixed sex organisation. Their safeguarding provisions account for this. Guide safeguarding rules are set as if it is a single sex organisation, when it is not. Therein lies the safeguarding problem.