LGBT parliamentary Discussion 1st July

[Cyclingmum50]

I thought this link might be of interest from yesterday's Parliamentary discussion

mobile.twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/1410617488656633865

That isn’t the argument made by gender ideologists like Black. The argument being made is that affirmation of individual identity is more important than structural analysis of inequality and balanced rights

Yes, absolutely. Gender ideology is straight out of American Libertarian philosophy. Ayn Rand. Atlas Shrugged. All that sort of stuff. It just makes no sense in European social democracies, and it’s incredibly wearing that all Tumblr/TikTok/Reddit/Twitter kiddies parrot arguments that just make no sense on this side of the Atlantic (they make no sense in the US either, but it’s such a ludicrous straw-man argument to suggest that “right wing religious conservatives” are driving feminists* over here).

There is such a thing as society over here, and individuals’ right to do whatever they want be “validated” has to be balanced with a consideration of the wider social picture.

*women arguing for women’s rights, not people centring some men’s needs

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

Keeping a running deletion count...

There have been masses, some people are teflon coated

Yeah I know

Hm. I listened to this yesterday. Strange for a UK MP to make a speech entirely referencing US events, no?

RE: the adding of 'T' to the LGB - is 'T' considered a sexuality?

'"homosexual" is viewed as a pejorative and pathologising term by most of the community'

I think what YeahbutNaw means is 'you aren't in my gang'.

The New Left love them a bit of american cultural imperialism.

Don't they just

The New Left love them a bit of american cultural imperialism.

Very much so. They are all metaphorically heading out west to stake a claim while ignoring the inconvenient reality of an existing settled population.

Of course that isn’t much different to British Imperialism, (also right wing), but I think the individualist ethos is still very much part of the American dream - hence why Biden can’t bring himself to fully endorse ‘socialist’ healthcare.

“I am fed up of hearing Gender Critical people claim they are campaigning for women's rights when all they seem to do day in day out is actively hurt women. Domestic violence has risen over the last year, sexual assault prosecutions have dropped, women are disproportionally affected by the pandemic when it comes to job losses. None of this apparently seems to matter to Gender Critical people, they quite happy to divert attention away from real feminist efforts to get angry anout public toilets.”

So men being abusive is the fault of feminism? This is a common argument but it is so anger inducing. I care about all those issues. I read about them, write about them, campaign. The reason mumsnet appears to be preoccupied with gender/sex is because these issues are intrinsic to understanding the other issues, and because you can’t discuss them any where bloody else without being shouted at by angry, self righteous men.

Also pissed off by the suggestion that we are all just the pawns of the religious right. Its patronising. I’m a socialist, far to the left of the Labour Party, and perfectly capable of understanding what I’m arguing and why without the aide of right wingers.

I’m also relatively well informed about feminist history. I can assure you that gender critical beliefs have been core parts of feminism for far longer than most feminists have known about trans people.

"Gender critical feminists" is a misnomer; feminism, the one that centres women, is gender critical by default.

All those things listed are what feminists are advocating and working for; they then come across situations where the T means women and children can't rely on the protections feminists established.

Jesus, what sort of nonsense have I been trading? Homosexual is a slur?? But queer is fine and dandy?
The 1984 rule book really is where this is coming from isn’t it?

I am not sure that Ayn Rand would approve of gender ideology. From what I understand Ayn Rand

a) found all sorts of imposed interventions, taxes and control appalling after having lived under communism. I don’t think Ayn Rand would approve of the enforced TWAW.

b) Ayn Rand ever respected people who created things. I don’t think influencers and keyboard warrior were very high on her list. Anyone who could run an empire, a global corporation, compose brilliant music, was an amazing doctor etc was a “good person”. I think Ayn couldn’t give a stuff about what gender people thought they had but she would have despised anyone’s need for external validation.

Sorry, detour

Reading*
Seriously, I’d this what is being taught to our children?
The trans activists are really not doing any body any favours. Men, women, transmen, transwomen, straight, gay, bi - no one is safe from this utter, utter bullshit!

I am starting to get this. I think I understand the problem.

1. it is mean and nasty to exclude natal males from our dating pool, regardless of our sexuality or if we fancy them. They would so much like to have sex and would always like to be considered.

2. it is mean and horrible to exclude rapists with penises from prisons. They also think of themselves as women and would be very sad if we didn’t.

3. we should focus more on problems that include the kind of women who have penises. I am very grateful to finally be told how I am doing feminism wrong. Maybe we could have a list of wonderful and worthy causes that penis people approve of?

I'm not a gender critical feminist. Never have been.

I'm a feminist. I am a campaigner for women's liberation; all women, whether they identify as women or not, indeed, whether they call themselves feminist or not. I am a survivor of abuse, some of it in mixed sex hospital wards. I am a lesbian who has faced the abominations of conversion therapy. I am a woman by virtue of being the sex that produces large gametes, and nothing else. Gender is the rule system that oppresses me because I am that sex.

Genderists seek to impose a set of beliefs on society that set Gender rules in stone. They are old fashioned sexists, and Black is one of them. She stands on the necks of other women with her lies about the feminists in this country being puppets of American misogynists while she insists that a woman is just a feeling and that women's rights are secondary to trans demands. She can spin in the wind all she likes. Feminists will stand firm and expose the lies with the determination that has kept us going in the face of rape threats, death threats and open bigotry such as was displayed on this thread.

The religious right-wing community told people exactly what their strategy was (split T from LGB) and "gender critical" ideologues bought right into it.

What “religious right-wing community”?

It doesn’t exist in the UK - not enough practicing Christians or charismatic church leaders for one thing, plus practising Christians tend to be economically left of centre and not politically active.

@BatmansBat fair points. Maybe what I meant is that the sort of people who admire Ayn Rand (possibly Jack Dorsey? possibly Mark Zuckerburg?) are also enabling this ideology? And it’s all about the individual. Never about social structures.

FloralBunting - spot on and much better expressed that I ever could have. It is ant-feminism, but like the word ‘woman’ the word ‘feminist’ is being colonised by those who put the be-penised people front and center.

@MidsomerMurmurs possibly, I don’t know enough of what makes these people tick. But as always perceived Ayn Rand as taking an absolute distaste to anything collective, it was the individual above all. I think she would have applauded anyone dressing as the opposite sex (as long as they were amazing business people). But she would abhorred anyone enforcing their reality upon anyone else.

My understanding is that TRAs are not happy for trans people to quietly live their lives. They demand that others accept their world view which I would assume is the opposite of libertarian. But I may be wrong.

all they seem to do day in day out is actively hurt women. Domestic violence has risen over the last year, sexual assault prosecutions have dropped, women are disproportionally affected by the pandemic when it comes to job losses

Actively hurt women? What on earth do you think we are all doing all day? You are suggesting feminists are the cause of dv, sexual assault and unemployment?!

Hot take.

Hilarious the way the gender ideologues keep insisting “TWAW and the public agrees@, when the ratios on corporate genderwoo tweets are right there to observe.

Black just doesn’t make sense.

I can explain why it makes sense to have a rights framework that recognises sex. I can also recognise that sometimes segregation by sex prevents some people from being able to engage in public life and that rights need to be balanced.

However I have no idea whose rights Black is trying to protect - people who want to access medical care or people who have a fetish? That isn’t my fault, that is Black’s because she prioritises personal affirmation over rights and equality, and therefore prioritises ‘TWAW’ at the expense of structural analysis.

For the benefit of @Oystercakemix but particularly any lurkers, the Yougov link given as proof that the general public accept that transgender people should be able to access spaces which do not correspond to their sex, was commissioned by Pink News. A similar survey was commissioned by Wings Over Scotland with significantly different results because the questions were worded differently to those that Pink News chose to use (wingsoverscotland.com/transforming-the-question/). It's normally a good idea to consider the inherent biases and who commissioned such surveys when using them as 'proof'. Neither may be right. Critical thinking seems to be a dying art.

And why, WHY does it always end up as a discussion about toilets! Is it to avoid the conversations about prisons, rape crisis centres etc which can't be handwaved away with 'they just want to pee!'

Sorry, that link didn't work- wingsoverscotland.com/transforming-the-question/

Also, in practice the policy suggested is that everyone should use the toilet in which they feel most comfortable, regardless of whether they are trans (which is never defined) and regardless of the impact on others.

This leads to existing toilets being declared unisex with no changes to infrastructure.

Pray tell how these American religious right types managed to brainwash us to their bidding?

I don't use social media so I doubt it was there. Nor do I read American newspapers or blogs. Can't be the radio as I am strictly BBC. Maybe the tellie? Oh yes the Mandalorian! That must be it...

Can't possibly be because I have independent thought! I'm a mere woman after all!