Female athletes and testosterone

[Queuingroundtheblock]

Just musing with a friend and we wondered - is the 10 nanomole testosterone limit for Olympic trans women athletes only for tw? Could women take testosterone to boost performance? I mean, obviously it's a really bad idea but just wondered if it's now allowed?

Christine is 18 and holds the World U20 400m record @ 48.54s.

I wonder if that will be rescinded?

If testosterone is too high how can they compete in some races but not others?

The IAAF decided that the 400m to 1 mile distances were the ones where elevated testosterone would give an unfair advantage.

That is good news for women who want to dope with testosterone then. If elevated testosterone isn't deemed to give an unfair advantage, I presume no female athlete will be disqualified for doping with testosterone.

won't be disqualified.

Third try. I'm sure women in other races, where testosterone isn't deemed to give an advantage, will be able to dope without disqualification.

'An athlete's total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10 nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category.

Compliance with the conditions may be monitored by testing, with non-compliance leading to eligibility to compete in events being suspended for 12 months.

The consensus statement will remain in place for Tokyo 2020, due to the ongoing consultation process and the inability to make a change while qualification for the Olympic Games is taking place.'

This is incorrect? I've googled a few times for threads over the months and never seen anything different.

Link?

@Cailleach1

Third try. I'm sure women in other races, where testosterone isn't deemed to give an advantage, will be able to dope without disqualification.

Link?

That women competing in the Olympics in some (which?) disciplines will be allowed to use artificial testosterone?

I find that unbelievable tbh. If it's true I really want to find out more.

The women from east Germany who were given testosterone had long term impact. The Olympics are ok with this from a fair competition pov, and also that if it's allowed then you wouldn't stand a chance without it, and the pressure on and long term damage to women that they would essentially be encouraging?

Have I misunderstood?

No, women (human females) can’t dope with testosterone because it’s a banned substance. Trans men get a Theraputic Use Exemption for testosterone.

NiceGerbil World Athletics sets a lower testosterone limit than the IOC.

The OP is about the Olympics isn't it though?

Whose rules are quite frankly inconsistent sexist drivel that manage to insult both men and women.

Cailleach1

Where did you get your info from?

The idea that women can dope with testosterone is so odd, where did you read it?

It’s transphobic to have different legal levels of testosterone for women and transwomen. It’s based on biological sex which is not real but is a social construct. It’s really offensive to be basing any criteria on biological sex. Transwomen are women like any other and sex observed at birth should have no bearing on how any woman is treated in any area of life.

@NiceGerbil

Cailleach1

Where did you get your info from?

The idea that women can dope with testosterone is so odd, where did you read it?

Sorry, I was just having a sarcastic fail.

It would be a logical conclusion. If the IOC are now saying that testosterone would gives no unfair advantage in certain races, there would be no reason to disqualify women for doping with testosterone.

It is just how stupidly bock*cks the whole thing is. Literally.

@Angelica789

It’s transphobic to have different legal levels of testosterone for women and transwomen. It’s based on biological sex which is not real but is a social construct. It’s really offensive to be basing any criteria on biological sex. Transwomen are women like any other and sex observed at birth should have no bearing on how any woman is treated in any area of life.

I think you’ll find that it’s gender that is a social construct and biological sex that is material reality.

Sport is divided into sex categories to allow fair competition between biological females in one class and biological males in another class.

Trans women are biological males, and no chanting of the “TWAW” mantra will ever change biological reality.

It’s really offensive that mediocre males with all the benefits of male puberty can identify into female sport and deny biological women their rightful places, medals and records.

I thought that post was someone being sarcastic, not a real opinion.

The whole thing is wrong as regards sports. Something will need to change. At the moment is there anything to stop a man identifying as a woman and competing in women's sports.

@FemaleAndLearning

I thought that post was someone being sarcastic, not a real opinion.

If that’s the case then apologies to Angelica789.

I’ve obviously spent far too long on Twitter where opinions like that are presented as true fact and peppered with the usual slurs aimed at anyone who disagrees

I could be wrong, it is hard to tell sometimes!

I think you’re right - still, I took the opportunity for a good rant (I’m quite cross about all this, if there was any doubt )

The recent case of the trans man footballer is interesting...

Kumi Yokoyama has come out as a man but is putting off taking testosterone until their football career (in women's football) is over.

So we have a situation where, if you complain about TW in women's sports you are denying them their human rights and very existence. But at the same time, it is fine for a person who says they are a man to compete in female sporting events. If trans men are actually men, why is this person allowed to compete in the women's team at all? It's almost as if nobody actually believes that KY is a man.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/06/20/kumi-yokoyama-comes-out-transgender-man-japan-football/

“I never saw myself as a girl, so I hated puberty. When I reached adulthood, I thought I’d maybe play soccer for another one or two years, so after that season ended I had my breasts removed,” they explained.

“Normally you can’t have it unless you’re receiving hormones, but my doctor understood my situation. I would have been caught by doping tests if I was on hormones, so I just had the top surgery.”

Cailleach1

Sorry!

Tone is hard with writing and there are some really strange ideas about!

@Signalbox

The recent case of the trans man footballer is interesting...

Kumi Yokoyama has come out as a man but is putting off taking testosterone until their football career (in women's football) is over.

So we have a situation where, if you complain about TW in women's sports you are denying them their human rights and very existence. But at the same time, it is fine for a person who says they are a man to compete in female sporting events. If trans men are actually men, why is this person allowed to compete in the women's team at all? It's almost as if nobody actually believes that KY is a man.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/06/20/kumi-yokoyama-comes-out-transgender-man-japan-football/

“I never saw myself as a girl, so I hated puberty. When I reached adulthood, I thought I’d maybe play soccer for another one or two years, so after that season ended I had my breasts removed,” they explained.

“Normally you can’t have it unless you’re receiving hormones, but my doctor understood my situation. I would have been caught by doping tests if I was on hormones, so I just had the top surgery.”

What levels of testosterone would a trans man take, if transitioning in adulthood? Clearly, KW could not compete as a women while taking it, presumably because of doping rules. Could they not try for a man's team instead? Something tells me they wouldn't make the grade. Now, why is that, I wonder?

BTW I do hate the locutions 'top surgery' and 'bottom surgery'. Makes it sound like you're buying a bikini.

Thank you. Yes I'm fully aware of the "evidence"that you choose to follow and refer to.

And what evidence do you ‘choose’ to follow that makes you believe otherwise
Cyclingmum50?

And do you have a vested interest in allowing a male to participate in female sporting categories? If so, perhaps you would have access to the studies that we don’t.

So please do link them up as there is a huge readership of these threads and people are here to see the evidence.

PennineSpring

"They went away and did some (bad) science and could only prove there was an advantage in those middle distance events. So CAS ruled on that basis.
Tucker was quite aghast about had bad their research was."

If I was a cynical person, then I would be tempted to think that the decisions made by both the IOC (Harper influenced them) and World Athletics were a deliberate compromise, instead of a science backed decision.
It is obvious to most sensible people, that if you bar an athlete from three events because of their Testosterone levels/intersex condition then they should be barred from the female category altogether.
Anyone who has XY chromosomes and has gone through male puberty should never be allowed to compete in the female category.

They went away and did some (bad) science and could only prove there was an advantage in those middle distance events. So CAS ruled on that basis.
Tucker was quite aghast about had bad their research was

This isn't quite correct.

They (IOC/WA) were asked to prove there was an advantage. They decided to focus on the 400 &800m events as that is where the unfair advantages of having testes, testosterone and an androgen response causing virilisation during male puberty, is greatest. They showed that.

It's not that they couldn't show there was a male advantage in the other events - there is. In fact, there is a male advantage in every athletics event but the extent of this varies by the event as different events use different attributes. They focused on where the advantage is most stark (limited time and focus). They may look at others soon, and probably will now people who have the male sex advantage are now using their male sex advantage in other events where there is no restriction on testosterone.