Female athletes and testosterone

[Queuingroundtheblock]

Just musing with a friend and we wondered - is the 10 nanomole testosterone limit for Olympic trans women athletes only for tw? Could women take testosterone to boost performance? I mean, obviously it's a really bad idea but just wondered if it's now allowed?

It will be interesting Gonad to see what the OIC will decide in their ‘review’ due after the Olympics.

It has been suggested that they will simply push the decision down onto the sporting bodies. It will become a mess when what it needed was the OIC to properly commission studies (from their deep pockets) and resolve this.

Maybe they will yet. But I doubt it.

The first step surely should be to say that given the current evidence, female sports must be female only and trans athletes must be accommodated in another way. If they want more evidence then great, if at some point in the future that evidence shows there is a way to include transwomen in women's categories that IS fair, then they can do that. Insisting on pursuing a policy that good quality evidence shows is unfair just shows them up as misogynists who would rather prioritise male feelings then give any consideration to the feelings, hard work and safety of female athletes.

I thought that the “natural” high testosterone levels usually was due to the presence of testicles, internal or external, which took the person in question through male puberty?

Due to the climate where everyone needs to be accepted for what they say they are, this is not always clear.

Due to newspaper reporting horrific crimes purportedly committed by women (and often with a picture of someone with a balding head and a beard) women on this board often like to look at pictures.

I think it may be a learned suspicion….

I thought that the “natural” high testosterone levels usually was due to the presence of testicles, internal or external, which took the person in question through male puberty?

This is true, which is why it’s unhelpful when news articles fail to mention this as it leads to the misunderstanding that the athletes in question are biological females.
And then it opens people up to accusations of “misogynoir”.

In my reading of Dr Hilton’s explanations. Females with medical conditions don’t have testosterone levels that would ‘fail’ the testosterone DSD tests of 5 mg. Females are well below that threshold.

Those ‘failing’ the tests are people with male types of DSDs. Therefore, yes, with internal or external testes.

I am happy to be corrected.

So we have

a) people not knowing or hushing up the fact that a too high testosterone level is due to the presence of testicles

b) the cut off level for testosterone higher than the doping levels of Eastern European athletes during the worst scandal

c) newspapers refusing to print any of these and constantly referring to these athletes (and rapists with penises) as women and using she/her pronouns.

d) people here scolding us for wanting to see pictures of the people we are discussing.I wonder why we are keen on that…?

These athletes were welcome to participate IF their testosterone levels were lower than 5.

If they cannot win without their high testosterone… and women cannot take testosterone to get that same benefit… not sure how people can defend the advantage tbh and say they care about sports for women.

I read this quote….

“Women’s sport was created to celebrate the achievements of extraordinary females. Not the efforts of mediocre males”

@Helleofabore

In my reading of Dr Hilton’s explanations. Females with medical conditions don’t have testosterone levels that would ‘fail’ the testosterone DSD tests of 5 mg. Females are well below that threshold.

Those ‘failing’ the tests are people with male types of DSDs. Therefore, yes, with internal or external testes.

I am happy to be corrected.

It's possible, although unlikely, for a female with a condition such as polycystic ovary syndrome to have a testosterone level of 5 nmol/L or above. Most women with PCOS will have levels below 5. If you see a woman with a level much above that then you'd be looking to see if she had a testosterone-producing tumour somewhere.

Females with a DSD or any other condition which causes higher-than-normal testosterone are NOT excluded from women's sports. Women's testosterone can be any level, so long as no doping/performance-enhancing medication is taken.

The only people the 5 nmol limit applies to is people who are male. That is, who have/were born with testes, and have an androgen response. These people are not female.

If anyone has been excluded from a woman's event due to the testosterone rules, that must mean they are a person of the male sex, and have an androgen sensitivity (ie not 46XY CAIS DSD).

Bearing in mind that women with severe PCOS are not well, they aren’t elite athletes

@PearPickingPorky I didn’t know that!

I know it is awful to reduce people to their organs/genitalia…but if that is true it would have been so much clearer… two people with testicles (and possibly penises?) are sad that they cannot compete in the women’s race.

@Helleofabore

These athletes were welcome to participate IF their testosterone levels were lower than 5.

If they cannot win without their high testosterone… and women cannot take testosterone to get that same benefit… not sure how people can defend the advantage tbh and say they care about sports for women.

I don't think it is about fairness for the (usually men) people who make and change all these rules. It is about letting men access anything they want to. Just because.

And we don't know if they have received anything, or the promise of anything, to sweeten their cough. Think of FIFA.

Good heavens!
Christine Mboma runs 200m, 400m, 800m, 1,500m. Christine is 18 and holds the World U20 400m record @ 48.54s.
As wel as Mboma and Masilingi, there is also another athlete, Seyni of Niger who has the same "high testosterone" levels.

olympics.nbcsports.com/2019/09/30/aminatou-seyni-testosterone-rule/

www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=10689924

It looks as though the women's 200m will be filling up with "high testosterone" athletes.

Beatrice Masilingi

twitter.com/TheNamibian/status/1383718716135772165/photo/1

Just to say again

The top allowable testosterone level for a male to compete against women in within the normal male range.

Also, if you Google, there are loads of scientific papers questioning the validity of the low normal level for men as being incorrect. Seems that it's not unusual for male people to have testosterone levels lower than the level in the tables. And that's just how they are.

The implication they are not men from the IOC is regressive and insulting to both men and women.

Of course, it didn't take long before the "real" reason wh they cannot run the 400m - racism
It does seem to me, to be a huge coincidence that two athletes with high testosterone levels should have the same coach

twitter.com/heitahndeshie/status/1410712033465712648

If testosterone is too high how can they compete in some races but not others?!

Is it just, they pick whoever they want to race now?

In that case the competitions will only be for straight white women with big boobs soon. And a few male people.

This image was shared on a thread from Twitter. 8 didn't save either link I'm afraid. It shows how low women's testosterone is, even in our fluctuating monthly cycle. Two limit 5 mg for DSD 10mg for transwomen is my understanding, women fall well below this.
Women can't take testosterone to bump up as it would be doping and it would make them ill.
Men can never have as low testosterone as women and all the benefits are had during puberty when they have their individual normal level of testosterone.
More info fr.om Fair Play for women.
fairplayforwomen.com/thighstrength/

@NiceGerbil

If testosterone is too high how can they compete in some races but not others?!

Is it just, they pick whoever they want to race now?

In that case the competitions will only be for straight white women with big boobs soon. And a few male people.

Ross Tucker is your friend, again. In this podcast he explains why XY athletes can run in some women’s races and not others. If I recall correctly, World Athletics successfully made the case that it’s not fair for XY athletes with a DSD to compete with women so the CAS asked them to prove it. They went away and did some (bad) science and could only prove there was an advantage in those middle distance events. So CAS ruled on that basis. Tucker was quite aghast about had bad their research was.

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-real-science-of-sport-podcast/id1461719225?i=1000491007047

What?

Why is allowed testosterone in those with DSDS half that of transwomen?

Why some races and not others?

Arrrgh! Can't stand illogic, inconsistency! Freaks me out.

NiceGerbil, yes it makes no sense. It's a hangover from the history of it all rather than all decided in one meeting though.

PearPickingPorky makes a very good point - in April 2018 the IAAF (now World Athletics) issued new Eligibility Regulations for the Female Classification (Athlete with Differences of Sexual Development) to replace the previous Regulations Governing Eligibility of Females with Hyperandrogenism to Compete in Women's Competition.

So if the Namibian athletes have been excluded on the basis of these regulations, then they do have a DSD.

The regulations don’t apply to female athletes with hyperandrogenism as these women would still have testosterone levels below 5 nmol/l.

The top allowable testosterone level for a male to compete against women in within the normal male range.

Not in athletics, as the limit is lower at 5 nmol/l.

If testosterone is too high how can they compete in some races but not others?

The IAAF decided that the 400m to 1 mile distances were the ones where elevated testosterone would give an unfair advantage.

Why is allowed testosterone in those with DSDS half that of transwomen?

It isn’t in athletics - it’s also 5 nmol/l for trans women too.

CeCe Telfer was excluded from the US Olympic Trials because they hadn’t complied with this requirement.