Employee using pronouns. Help!

[OfNobody]

Hi all,

A friend of mine has just taken on a new recruit and he's just realised that she uses pronouns after her name on her email signature.

He'd love for her not to do that because he's GC himself (and has a very traditional client base) but can he ask her to stop? Is that in itself discrimination?

Would love to advise him but generally, all the work issues I see around this run in the opposite direction (employers asking employees for pronouns).

Any experience of this, or any insight into how he can politely request that she drop the pronouns without ending up on the front cover of The Guardian?

From what he said, she doesn't sound like a massive raging handmaiden. She's just fresh out of uni and obviously thinks this is the way to go.

There are plenty of people who'd respond positively to pronouns in an email

There are plenty of people who would respond positively to ‘take back control’. It still isn’t appropriate for work email.

There are plenty of people who'd respond positively to pronouns in an email

And equally, there are plenty of people who don’t respond positively to them - esp if they are used in a professional capacity.

On what basis are all those saying "it will reflect badly on your company if people do this?"
No it won't , unless you assume that everyone thinks the same as you.
I can understand why people might not want to put them in their signature themselves, as it's personal choice, isn't it.
Somebody else doing it has absolutely no bearing on you though.
Insisting your boss says she can't do it is surely as bad as the other way round everybody moans about, like you shouldn't be forced to put them in if you don't want to?
Complete double standards and a bit hypocritical to say this Any experience of this, or any insight into how he can politely request that she drop the pronouns

From what he said, she doesn't sound like a massive raging handmaiden.
I'd biscuit but know thats frowned upon nowadays.

No it won't , unless you assume that everyone thinks the same as you

And that goes the other way too. Assuming that everyone embraces gender ideology. The big push back would indicate they don't. Making a political statement, and that is what it is, is not a good idea for companies who want to sell.

Who cares what people call you when you’re not there?

Praise the Lord' is an exhortation - I can see why that might offend a non-believer, for example.

Adding 'she/her' after your name is a statement

Surely it's also an exhortation for the reader to use those pronouns when referring to that person? Otherwise what's the point?

Calling out being she/her disadvantages women and transwomen in the workplace. I would suggest he says he doesn't want to risk that as he cares about equality

No it won't , unless you assume that everyone thinks the same as you

That is precisely why it’s a bad idea to put statements of belief in work auto signatures. People don’t all think the same.

No it won't , unless you assume that everyone thinks the same as you

And that goes the other way too

Yes, that's what I said!
I said it should be personal choice to put them in or not, and can appreciate some people don't want to which is fair enough.
What others choose to do is surely up to them though.
Saying they can't include them because you don't want them to or agree is exactly the same attitude as anyone saying you have to include your pronouns.

@DadJoke

Why would being gender critical make you object to people including their pronouns in an email if they want to? Our CEO does it because she's fed up of people assuming she's a man.

I'm not gender critical.

I would however assume anyone doing this in a business e-mail is a virtue signalling prat and I would take my business elsewhere.

On what basis are all those saying "it will reflect badly on your company if people do this?"
No it won't , unless you assume that everyone thinks the same as you.

Because it's not a neutral statement, it's an unnecessary ideological addition that adds nothing and could potentially alienate clients.

Who cares what people call you when you’re not there?

I'd have thought more for situations like this

Person 1 - "I got an email off Chris the other day, he said.....

Person 2 - "Chris is female"

Person 1 - "Ah"

Are you telling me that you would think it reasonable for an atheist to be offended simply by a believer stating that they subscribed to a particular faith?
I’m fairly certain a Christian would be offended if I put in my email signature that I worship Satan. And if I wrote in my email signature that I’m a devotee of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster I’m sure some people would read that and think I was nuts. Equally if my signature proclaimed that I voted Leave it would alienate some Remain voters. The best thing is to leave religion, belief and politics out of the workplace and certainly out of your email signature.

Saying they can't include them because you don't want them to or agree is exactly the same attitude as anyone saying you have to include your pronouns.

Personal choice on your own emails.

Not personal choice on work emails.

People shouldn’t be expressing their beliefs on gender identity/God/politics in work emails.

Saying she/her is the equivalent of putting ‘I heart Boris’ on an email. It’s a statement of belief.

and could potentially alienate clients.

Seriously, how?
(Being genuine)
It wouldn't affect me.
If you didn't want to include them fair enough, but how does anyone else doing it alienate me?
It doesn't.
I'll just keep on doing me.

@Quaggars

Who cares what people call you when you’re not there?

I'd have thought more for situations like this

Person 1 - "I got an email off Chris the other day, he said.....

Person 2 - "Chris is female"

Person 1 - "Ah"

So... resolved within a few words? Without any angst..?

I think plain email signature templates are the best.

Yes, to your name, job title, contact details and working hours (if part-time).

No to fancy fonts and different colours - they’re difficult for some people to read.
No to your qualifications - stop showing off.

No to pronouns - unless your recipient really needs to know them.
No to your religious or political beliefs.

I said it should be personal choice to put them in or not, and can appreciate some people don't want to which is fair enough

It's a political statement. Thus people shouldn't have the right to push their personal political statements on work time when they are representing their companies.

@Quaggars

and could potentially alienate clients.

Seriously, how?
(Being genuine)
It wouldn't affect me.
If you didn't want to include them fair enough, but how does anyone else doing it alienate me?
It doesn't.
I'll just keep on doing me.

Because it’s outrageously sexist.

If OP's colleague feels the need to justify the company practice of not cluttering up an email sign-off with supernumerary details, he can always cite the case that showed that employees identifiable as female found they had to establish their competence and credibility with many male clients and were less productive as a result.

That's why email addresses ideally should use initials, not full names.

@Quaggars

and could potentially alienate clients.

Seriously, how?
(Being genuine)
It wouldn't affect me.
If you didn't want to include them fair enough, but how does anyone else doing it alienate me?
It doesn't.
I'll just keep on doing me.

It would alienate me. I'm not even gender critical. It's the "look at me" wokeness I object to.

I don't understand how this came about tbh. I've only worked in 2 offices since e-mail was invented. Both have set styles which cannot be altered.

I don't know how widespread this is I've never come across anyone in my own sector or the other professional sectors I deal with who do this.

It's the "look at me" wokeness I object to.

💯

So... resolved within a few words? Without any angst..?

Yes, but the conversation would surely carry on.... once you knew, surely you'd say she?
As in carrying on from the last sentence

"Chris is a she "

"Ah"

"So anyway, she was saying about the project she was working on the other day......."

Chris isn't in the room, but would still be referred to her.
Unless the person kept on saying he knowing she was female, which would make them seem like a bit of a knob lol

[quote mrsborisjohnson]It’s not hurting anyone, it’s showing support for your colleagues.

It's hurting women: legalfeminist.org.uk/2020/07/19/pronouns-compulsion-and-controversy/[/quote]
I haven't read the article yet but I can confirm that it is hurting women. I received an email at work with pronouns and I honestly felt it like a gut punch. I felt unwelcome and silenced and isolated. The alienation I felt was visceral and reflexive.
To me it signals an allegiance with or at least a sympathy for an ideology that I experience as sexist, misogynistic, homophobic and often racist. A movement that seeks to erode women's rights and break down their sexual boundaries.
Someone with pronouns in their email signature is not an ally to women.

@Quaggars

So... resolved within a few words? Without any angst..?

Yes, but the conversation would surely carry on.... once you knew, surely you'd say she?
As in carrying on from the last sentence

"Chris is a she "

"Ah"

"So anyway, she was saying about the project she was working on the other day......."

Chris isn't in the room, but would still be referred to her.
Unless the person kept on saying he knowing she was female, which would make them seem like a bit of a knob lol

Well of course you'd say she from then on. I really don't see the issue here.

As an aside my husband works for a large international company where plenty of people have ambiguous names due to language and cultural differences. They often communicate by email rather than in person or on calls. He tends to refer to colleagues as 'they' because he knows women get unfairly treated at work and it's not in their interests to draw attention to their sex in general.