Non-binary as a pointless option

[Slimmingstar]

There’s an event I’m going to for a hobby activity primarily attended by men. It’s a ‘clothing optional’ event.

The booking has closed now, to everyone other than females and ‘non-binary people’.
I imagine, in the hope more women will attend.

This is completely pointless, as of course non-binary means nothing and cannot be challenged.

I’m booking myself on as well as my (male!) penis having partner. However, if asked, we will say he is non-binary (as is the dog) and nothing can be said for fear of bigotry. I find this ‘non-binary’ option even more ridiculous, as all genitalia will on display!

So far we don't seem to have reached a unique & workable definition of non-binary which is distinct from the way in which a lot of women (? & men) navigate the world. This doesn't invalidate anyone, & doesn't mean there may not be such a definition, but I don't feel I've heard one yet.

By the way, I believe anyone is free to believe what they want to believe, and to express those beliefs -- just be aware of the effect your words have on other people whose lived experience differs from yours

There's a world of irony in that statement.

Can some of the incensed people on this thread help me with how I establish I am NOT non-binary? I suspect it is easier to work that out than if I am non-binary.

Male and female can refer to sex, but can also refer to gender identity.

The definition of male is of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring. .

The definition of female is of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.

The definition of gender identity varies but at its heart, it is always about an innermost feeling.

How can biological terms which describe two and only two distinct and mutually exclusive states of being (externally verifiable and specific material facts) be applied to an innermost feeling (internal, not externally verifiable, not a material fact, unspecific)?

Gender identity is something in the brain. In most people it matches their biological sex, but not always.

There are two schools of thought for gender identity (that you believe resides in the brain):

-》it is a non-material entity, a disembodied but sexed essence or soul, something metaphysical that can inhabit an opposite-sex body or

-》it has a material basis, our brains are either male or female and these sexed brains can end up in opposite-sex bodies.

Which of these two do you favour?

@RedDogsBeg

By the way, I believe anyone is free to believe what they want to believe, and to express those beliefs -- just be aware of the effect your words have on other people whose lived experience differs from yours

There's a world of irony in that statement.

By the way, I believe anyone is free to believe what they want to believe, and to express those beliefs -- just be aware of the effect your words have on other people whose lived experience differs from yours

By the way, I believe anyone is free to believe what they want to believe, and to express those beliefs -- just be aware of the effect your words have when played out in the real world.

OP's post is the perfect example of what happens when you play fast and loose with definitions.

Not sure where all the strikethroughs came from in my last post.

Mumsnet's editing features are a shambles.

You get the gist...

So just to clear up any confusion - there’s no sex or sexual behaviour at the event. Any inappropriate behaviour would be clamped down on and to be fair, it never happens.
I am very safe - much more so than in most places, I feel.

These (clothing free) events are always attended by more men than women……… it can be a long debate as to why……

Sometimes women, particularly if they are new to these events, feel uncomfortable that they are so outnumbered, so then fewer women attend and it’s a cycle……… hence trying to even up the numbers…….

The point of the thread, as a good many of you have picked up, is that to open it to ‘women and non-binary’ is meaningless as anyone is/can be non-binary in terms of their gender (a social construct).

It struck me as amusing that the organiser felt this would help the imbalance……

The point of the thread, as a good many of you have picked up, is that to open it to ‘women and non-binary’ is meaningless as anyone is/can be non-binary in terms of their gender (a social construct).

A truly excellent illustration Slimmingstar, I doff my hat to you.

I would also imagine Slimingstar that it is very difficult to hide sex at these events, but that most common indicators of identity will be absent?

@WomaninBoots

If OP hadn't implied that OH was not NB... how would the NB defenders on this thread determine if a man signing up to the event when places have been limited to women and NB know that the man was or was not NB. Especially as he will not be wearing any clothes? How do we identify the NB without clothing or pronoun badge signifier?

Hair colour.

Got to keep it up to date though to avoid being spotted as a fraud. Blue is so 2020, you need some kind of green or yellow to fit in now.

The point of the thread, as a good many of you have picked up, is that to open it to ‘women and non-binary’ is meaningless as anyone is/can be non-binary in terms of their gender (a social construct).

The organisers have signalled a clear belief in gender identity. You have explained, Slimmingstar that what they are really concerned about is an imbalance of the sexes, especially if that tips too far towards male participants.

So what I'm wondering now is how can they even know what the current imbalance is? How can they be certain that the persons registering as women are female?

Sorry SlimmingStar That was my filthy mind. I think it was just that more men than women are registering

Maybe they could use lanyards or stickers?

[quote AssassinatedBeauty]@colettesidonie it's interesting that you say that you were not comfortable expressing masculinity at all and that's what led you to identify as non binary. It's exactly the same experience that I had as a child, hating all aspects of femininity that I was expected to perform. I rejected them all as soon as I could express myself. That's what led me to feminism once I was older. [/quote]
Exactly.

This is an experience common to feminists, because it’s frequently the experience of bucking against “patriarchal norms” of expectations of femininity that lead women to embrace feminism. So there’s really no need to explain to feminists what that feels like.

In terms of how I think, and present myself and live, the only difference between me and a non binary person, or me and an agender person, or me and a gender queer person is that I won’t say the catechism of pronouns and gender identity. I don’t subscribe to the underlying beliefs. I know that sex is real, and I think gendered expectations are bullshit. I just know that collective efforts to reduce the power of the gender boxes and let us all live according to our non gendered preferences is a better way forward than people just swapping from one box to the other, or shifting between the two, while leaving everyone else trapped inside whether it suits them or not.

OPs husband is as non binary as anyone else, because as we are so often told, no one would lie about their gender identity for gain or for fraudulent purposes, right? The organisers have brought this on themselves- play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Yes. I also fit the definitions that have been posted so far. That is why it is incredibly rude when posters label us as c’s.

Surely though this is a great thing really. It means that all those who had felt isolated in being non-binary realise that they are by no means alone at all. There is probably millions of us just in the UK.

colettesidonie in what way can male or female refer to gender identity rather than sex, which it seems you do not deny?

Adding my voice here. I have resented femininity since I was a child. One of my earliest memories is observing how much time female adults in my family spent applying make-up every day, and thinking it seemed unfair and oppressive.

Then after that, I noticed that in Peter and Jane ladybird books, Peter went swimming, while Jane hstayed at home and helped with the housework.

It just went on from there...

I have read all the guidance on gender, and I indubitably fit the criteria for non-binary. I prefer to reject the stereotypes all together though, and identify as a feminist instead

@Bunshaped

This thread is quite funny when you think about it.

It really is the emperor's new clothes!

This thread is absolutely bloody brilliant

Emperor's New Clothes in all their shining glory, right enough!

Honestly I'm not trying to (a) invalidate anyone else's experience of being discriminated against on the basis of gender or sex, or (b) imply that anyone should or shouldn't identify a certain way, or that people should conform to any particular expectations / roles / etc.

I appreciate the honest questions that some have asked. I can only describe it from my own POV. Also, I wasn't trying to hijack the thread or anything -- just wanted to try and humanize nonbinary folks a bit, by sharing my perspective.

Transwomen are far more feminine than me. I in no way reflect societies expectations of what a 'woman' gendered person is. Yet my biological sex is that of a woman. I am not a cis woman, because I don't have the foggiest idea how to determine a gender identity.

I haven't ever felt like I fit in with the girls, I have no idea what it feels like to be a person who wears heels, makeup, nail varnish, tights etc etc. Throughout school I wore trousers when all the other girls wore skirts.

I didn't have any interest in dolls, preferred trains. I have always got on with men better than many women, because I don't like the standard vacuous conversations many girls seemed to have when I was growing up. I am a rather unattractive biological woman attracted to biological males.

So what is my gender? How does this impact on my sexuality?

Seriously, what box do i belong in? Because I have only ever known what it feels like to be me. I have absolutely no concept of how it feels to be anymore else. I can imagine in my head how I might feel were I to inhabit that body/life of another, but I doubt that would mesh well with reality.

It wasn't until I went to university that I met others like me. We called ourselves non conformers.

I have 3 children, my eldest DD is similarly masculine. She is sexually attracted to biological women. She describes herself as non binary and Pansexual because her partner changed to identifying as a man. In my world she is a biological woman who is attracted to other biological women, she is a lesbian.

Is this not just confusing?

@colettesidonie

Honestly I'm not trying to (a) invalidate anyone else's experience of being discriminated against on the basis of gender or sex, or (b) imply that anyone should or shouldn't identify a certain way, or that people should conform to any particular expectations / roles / etc.

I appreciate the honest questions that some have asked. I can only describe it from my own POV. Also, I wasn't trying to hijack the thread or anything -- just wanted to try and humanize nonbinary folks a bit, by sharing my perspective.

I'm not sure that anyone has suggested that you're trying to invalidate anyone else's experience of discrimination, or imply that people should/shouldn't identify a particular way.

I also don't think there's any need to try to "humanize" non-binary people. No one here is suggesting people who identify as non-binary aren't human, or are lesser or less human in some way. Far from it.

I think people are trying to understand the thought processes behind recognising that the box society wants to fit you in (masculine, performing masculinity) isn't a box that you want to be in, and then deciding to step into a different box rather than smash the boxes up altogether.

I'm confused

Well, colette, I genuinely appreciate you continuing to engage. It's very interesting to hear from someone who has a grasp of these issues.

But - can you describe what it means to 'feel like a girl' or 'feel like a boy'?

My problem is that it all sounds so blooming vague. I can't imagine what it means to 'feel like a girl' or 'feel like a boy'.

We cannot know what other people feel like (although it can help if they attempt to describe those feelings), so how can we know what it means to feel like a sex that we are not? And surely every female feels 'like a girl', no matter how they feel? (vice versa for males, of course).

It would be great to hear what you mean by this 'feeling'. How is it that a girl feels? Or a boy feels?

I find it a bit creepy that a clothing optional event wants more women to come. Do they have a quota to fill or is ballroom dancing part of the event?

I appreciate you engaging in good faith, colette.

It is a shame you feel invalidated by some of the things people say here. I certainly think you are a valid human being and I relate to a lot of what you write. I don't need to believe in gender ID to do so. I'm a raging atheist and lefty, yet manage to have Muslim, Christian and (gasp) Tory friends. I think it's really important to be able to criticise ideas, without it being an attack on people who believe those ideas.

Your description of being non binary made a lot of sense in a way, although obviously I don't personally have a gender ID. I'm afraid it only reinforced my conviction that many of us feminists really do fit the definition of non binary. Being a female under the patriarchy is a pretty fucked up experience much of the time. Being sexually attracted to the sex which has previously raped you, for instance. Or having your identity ripped to shreds when you lose your career to child birth. Not to play oppression Olympics, but just to say it is a shame that people with shared experiences of suffering in a patriarchal society are kept apart due to differences over whether or not we should compel others to use special pronouns.

@2Rebecca

I find it a bit creepy that a clothing optional event wants more women to come. Do they have a quota to fill or is ballroom dancing part of the event?

It's a clothing optional event... if you are prudish enough (there is no issue with that) to think events that are trying to keep relatively equal gender amounts are creepy... I'm sure you already think clothing optional events are creepy. You're not the audience.