Non-binary as a pointless option

[Slimmingstar]

There’s an event I’m going to for a hobby activity primarily attended by men. It’s a ‘clothing optional’ event.

The booking has closed now, to everyone other than females and ‘non-binary people’.
I imagine, in the hope more women will attend.

This is completely pointless, as of course non-binary means nothing and cannot be challenged.

I’m booking myself on as well as my (male!) penis having partner. However, if asked, we will say he is non-binary (as is the dog) and nothing can be said for fear of bigotry. I find this ‘non-binary’ option even more ridiculous, as all genitalia will on display!

@WhoWants2Know

This might be a slight tangent-- but I had understood previously that naturism/nudism is just about being comfortable in one's natural state, and not a sexual thing.

But if that's the case, why does it matter whether the people who turn up to be naked are male or female?

Because the men want to see boobies 🤣

@DadJoke Id love to know what you think non binary is.

Imo most of us are non binary but I'm interested if you have another interpretation of what it means

@colettesidonie

allAssassinatedBeauty wrote:

male/female refer to sex not gender.

Thanks for the civil response. Male and female can refer to sex, but can also refer to gender identity.

Gender is societal and cultural

Here's the explanation that makes the most sense to me, based on my own lived experience and reading/thinking about the issue:

• Gender identity is something in the brain. In most people it matches their biological sex, but not always.

• Gender expression is how people express their gender identity. The particular signifiers are indeed cultural and changing. But that doesn't make them meaningless. It's sort of like language: The particular sounds in a word are arbitrary, but we still use language to express meaning.

Your gender identity might be non-binary, which tells people about how you identify and what you believe.

Exactly.

It doesn't say anything about what sex you are.

True. But that's between me and my doctor, and my spouse. :-)

Why does your spouse need to know your sex? That’s horribly transphobic. They should just love you for your gender identity, surely?

@colettesidonie that is so interesting. So here we are talking about a nudist event based on gender identity. They must have considered a safe space for the people who feel a strong gender identity but are uncomfortable with gender expression.

I am so interested in how this works out. And how they will evaluate if they had the right mix between the gender identities. They obviously thought about it.

I also think it is right that they only started with three gender identities. This can be expanded once the success of this event has been established.

@NonnyMouse1337

How can you express gender identity whilst naked?

I think my idea of pronoun badges fastened to nipples is still a good one.

Cock couture. For all your gender fluid nudist needs.

I'm picturing a little frilly pink skirt for a she day and a little suit and moustache for a he day. Pictured is an option for a spidey day. Pronouns Peter/Parker

From Stonewall.

“Non-binary

An umbrella term for people whose gender identity doesn’t sit comfortably with ‘man’ or ‘woman’. Non-binary identities are varied and can include people who identify with some aspects of binary identities, while others reject them entirely.”

I don’t understand how or why anyone would insist that a complete stranger has a ‘binary’ gender identity.

[quote DadJoke]@CharlieParley he's not using a "different definition" of non-binary. He's lying. It's like pretending to be a Muslim using a different definition of Muslim to steal someone's place. It's reprehensible sophistry.[/quote]
Is that the same as using a different definition of the word woman?

declaring that you are non-binary when you are not non-binary does not make you non-binary, any more than declaring you are gay when you are not makes you gay.

Does that mean that all the transwidows spouses who suddenly declare they're gay, aren't gay?

It's not even double standards. It's just jibber jabber.

I don’t understand how or why anyone would insist that a complete stranger has a ‘binary’ gender identity.

Only if your own identity is dependent on making sweeping generalisations about other people's lives to reinforce how unique and different you are from everyone else.

I am not binary. I do not identify as having a gender identity.

Presumably this makes me non-binary? If not, why not?

@colettesidonie male/female really does only relate to sex. The words are used in all kinds of non human context to describe the sex of the thing being discussed. When people talk about female guinea pigs they aren't referring to the gender identity of said rodent. Ditto for a female holly tree.

I appreciate that there is a push amongst some people to redefine the words male/female to include gender identity in humans but that is problematic in many ways, the main one being that gender identity is inscrutable and indefinable. It erodes the use and meaning of male/female to include a separate concept that is inscrutable and indefinable.

I agree that gender expression is not meaningless. It is, after all, something that feminists are specifically interested in thinking about because of the gendered expectations associated with it and the use of it to control and suppress women.

Gender identity is an internal belief and no two people who state the same identity should be expected to share any particular characteristics - either physically or in behaviour.

GoldenBlue

genuinely I don't understand non binary

I struggled with it for a long time, because I was raised to believe that gender was purely a social construct. But that stubbornly didn't quite fit my own lived experience.

What made it click for me was the idea of gender expression, which I posted about in another response. It's how you move about in the world comfortable in your own gender. I compared it to language -- we have all kinds of little signifiers that convey our gender, to others and to ourselves.

In my own case - it's not just that occasionally I want to wear a skirt. It's that I'm never comfortable expressing masculinity and haven't been since I was ~ 4 or 5.

Where it gets confusing is that gender roles are often imposed on us by a patriarchal society, and when that happens, the imposed limits on gender expression can be constricting. The more people can break down imposed gender roles, the better. But I suspect there will always be a residuum of gender which is deeply entwined with one's identity, not one's social roles.

Maybe there's a utopian future with absolutely no concept of gender, but that's too abstract for my day-to-day living.

Anyway, that's my long-winded take on it. I can't speak for other NB/trans people.

[quote DadJoke]@CharlieParley he's not using a "different definition" of non-binary. He's lying. It's like pretending to be a Muslim using a different definition of Muslim to steal someone's place. It's reprehensible sophistry.[/quote]
@DadJoke

"Using a different definition of Muslim woman to steal someone's place"

Like the ever-increasing number of transwomen taking women's spaces in workplaces, on boards, in sports. Most notably now, in the upcoming Olympic Games...

Surely you must see the hypocrisy here.

Transwomen are doing exactly this. They are using a different definition of "woman" to take over women's spaces.

OP, I want to know if everyone will be wearing masks 😷 and if it is defined as clothes or partially clothed?

Ah, so it's about what you wear?

I'm never comfortable expressing masculinity

Gender expression is how you dress, yes?

BelleClapper:

Why does your spouse need to know your sex?

Are you actually confused why my spouse would know my biological sex?

jellyfrizz:

No one has denied your existence though.

Statements like "nonbinary is meaningless" and "you're either male or female, you aren't nonbinary" ARE denying that aspect of my existence.

(By the way, I believe anyone is free to believe what they want to believe, and to express those beliefs -- just be aware of the effect your words have on other people whose lived experience differs from yours)

ArabellaScott:

What does it feel like?

In my particular case, the trajectory was something like this: From about the age of 4, I instinctively sensed that I wasn't actually a boy. My physical biology never bothered me but I always felt more girl than boy. Then, school and most of adulthood was a long unsuccessful attempt to socialize as male. After I came out, it was like a rock being lifted from my heart. I can go about the world much more comfortable as who I am. (Not always completely comfortable but I think THAT is just the human condition.)

@colettesidonie

GoldenBlue > genuinely I don't understand non binary

I struggled with it for a long time, because I was raised to believe that gender was purely a social construct. But that stubbornly didn't quite fit my own lived experience.

What made it click for me was the idea of gender expression, which I posted about in another response. It's how you move about in the world comfortable in your own gender. I compared it to language -- we have all kinds of little signifiers that convey our gender, to others and to ourselves.

In my own case - it's not just that occasionally I want to wear a skirt. It's that I'm never comfortable expressing masculinity and haven't been since I was ~ 4 or 5.

Where it gets confusing is that gender roles are often imposed on us by a patriarchal society, and when that happens, the imposed limits on gender expression can be constricting. The more people can break down imposed gender roles, the better. But I suspect there will always be a residuum of gender which is deeply entwined with one's identity, not one's social roles.

Maybe there's a utopian future with absolutely no concept of gender, but that's too abstract for my day-to-day living.

Anyway, that's my long-winded take on it. I can't speak for other NB/trans people.

That's interesting, thanks. Lots of people aren't comfortable expressing masculinity - were you saying this makes them NB, or women/ girls? Wasn't sure from your post.

But ... 'felt more girl than boy' - what does this actually mean?

Can you describe it, is what I mean?

@colettesidonie it's interesting that you say that you were not comfortable expressing masculinity at all and that's what led you to identify as non binary. It's exactly the same experience that I had as a child, hating all aspects of femininity that I was expected to perform. I rejected them all as soon as I could express myself. That's what led me to feminism once I was older.

Statements like "nonbinary is meaningless"

The point was that it is specifically meaningless in the context described by the OP.

I'm not following your reasoning @colettesidonie

Why aren't you trans? What does non-binary actually mean in your day to day life.
I rejected femininity growing up. At no point did I think I was anything other than a girl and then a woman. I just live womanhood the way I want to.

Why do you feel the need to identify as being neither a man nor a women? Surely you are just a man in whatever way you want to be.

I wonder at what point people lost the ability to just be whomever they are. God bless women like Temple Grandin and men like Boy George.

I think you also need to understand that many people on this board genuinely regard being 'non-binary' as a natural state. You should consider that women have been rejecting markers of femininity for a very long time.

Does that mean that all the transwidows spouses who suddenly declare they're gay, aren't gay?

It's not even double standards. It's just jibber jabber.

Couldn't agree more Datun. Jibber, jabber indeed, a house of cards built on shifting sand.

just be aware of the effect your words have on other people whose lived experience differs from yours

Very many on here will have experienced the same frustrations with gender expectations- which is what led them to feminism.

Declaring myself non-binary wouldn’t stop those expectations, or the way my body works.

Declaring sex as meaningless (which is what the example of accepting non-binary or females is essentially doing) is denying MY lived experience and that of all the women and girls across the world who have suffered purely for having a female body.