Non-binary as a pointless option

[Slimmingstar]

There’s an event I’m going to for a hobby activity primarily attended by men. It’s a ‘clothing optional’ event.

The booking has closed now, to everyone other than females and ‘non-binary people’.
I imagine, in the hope more women will attend.

This is completely pointless, as of course non-binary means nothing and cannot be challenged.

I’m booking myself on as well as my (male!) penis having partner. However, if asked, we will say he is non-binary (as is the dog) and nothing can be said for fear of bigotry. I find this ‘non-binary’ option even more ridiculous, as all genitalia will on display!

[quote DadJoke]**@AssassinatedBeautyI'd ask again @DadJoke... Non-binary isn't defined, and if the OPs partner feels non-binary then who is to deny what his identity is in that moment?

He doesn't. He's lying. OP said as much. "However, if asked, we will say he is non-binary (as is the dog) and nothing can be said for fear of bigotry." If you are non-binary, you know damn well what it means, and whether you are.[/quote]
Do YOU know what it means? If you do, please enlighten the rest of us.

And please tell us how you know who's lying about their gender identity & who isn't. (Apart from those who confess to it, like OP's DH, of course.) That's a long-asked question which has yet to be answered by anyone in the wider debate, AFAIK, so it would be valuable to have an answer today.

@OnASpoonEdge

Oh is it a quote within a quote thing?

like a circle in a spiral Like a wheel within a wheel Never ending or beginning On an ever spinning reel

I've been told today elsewhere that no "cis man" would ever want to identify into a marginalised oppressed identity like being trans or non-binary, because they would be losing their privilege.

Case closed

OP's bloke is non-binary, because no male would risk saying that if he wasn't

So, Collette, what makes you non-binary? I really would like to know. What does it feel like? How is it different from being male or female?

Arbracadarbra

"Impossible to say"

The point the OP is making is pretty much exactly that. The event has specified women and NB when in OP's experience of such events they are lacking in female participants... which is why they are asking for "women and NB". But they are making the error of not being clear enough in an effort to be inclusive because in OP's estimation they are actually wanting female people only having reached a full quota of male people.

The event are not getting what they want because they are using gender language when they should be using sex language. OP is gaming their inability/unwillingness to acknowledge sex as discrete from gender.

@chickenyhead

It would be interesting to see what happened if just XY individuals turned up.

Half of them could simply self-identify as non-male people and everyone would have a lovely time. That's how it works, right?

I think that @DadJoke and @yeahbutnaw are being so unkind here. Why would they tell people how they identify? Maybe OPs partner is questioning and this is their way to explore that? Maybe OPs partner reject toxic masculinity?

The key point here is that this is a wonderful, innovative new event where it is obvious to everyone that only gender matters. They want an even split based on gender identity! So what if everyone walks around with penises? This is an event which has stepped beyond biological sex and only considers the person within.

@BatmansBat

I think that *@DadJoke and @yeahbutnaw* are being so unkind here. Why would they tell people how they identify? Maybe OPs partner is questioning and this is their way to explore that? Maybe OPs partner reject toxic masculinity?

The key point here is that this is a wonderful, innovative new event where it is obvious to everyone that only gender matters. They want an even split based on gender identity! So what if everyone walks around with penises? This is an event which has stepped beyond biological sex and only considers the person within.

Sounds like a welcoming safe space for OP's partner to explore they's gender fluidity. Wonderful stuff.

@colettesidonie male/female refer to sex not gender. Every human born is either male or female (even if they have a DSD). Gender is societal and cultural, changing over time and in different places. Your gender identity might be non-binary, which tells people about how you identify and what you believe. It doesn't say anything about what sex you are.

Do YOU know what it means?

A person is nonbinary if their gender identity is neither (entirely) male nor female.

From what I can tell, a lot (most?) of the people on this board don't believe there is such a thing as gender identity, as distinct from biological sex or gender expression. Hence there is a lot of talking in circles and also a lot of invalidation of NB/trans people.

how you know who's lying

You can't, really. It does seem a bit silly to have an event that specifically welcomes all genders but then tries to put a cap on one of the genders.

@colettesidonie

BelleClapper wrote:

…who are either male or female.

Well, no. Not in terms of gender. Which is the point. Believe me, I know who and what I am. Better than you do, since you don't know me.

One of the weirder things about being nonbinary or trans is having people casually deny your existence.

But bless your little heart.

That's very condescending. I assume that was your intent, but why be hostile?

Hi @colettesidonie, genuinely I don't understand non binary and how if differs from gender critical.

I don't believe that we need to be bound by gender stereotypes
I think we should be able to dress any way we want - I wore a tux to my graduation and my sex is female, I sometimes wear dresses but mostly jeans
I think we should be able to wear makeup/not wear makeup irrespective of sex - I bought my son makeup for xmas as he wanted some
I think we should be able to do what we want (as long as legal) irrespective of sex and wont conform to social norms - I climb trees and ride a motorbike, do all the gardening including the chopping and digging but I also cook, and sew
I think we should be able to work in any sector and be respected - I work in a male dominated tech environment

How does non-binary differ

I really would like to understand. I have a number of children in various LGB categories and a friend with a T adult child but have no experience with the non binary

Okay, but what is your 'gender identity'?

@colettesidonie

BelleClapper wrote:

…who are either male or female.

Well, no. Not in terms of gender. Which is the point. Believe me, I know who and what I am. Better than you do, since you don't know me.

One of the weirder things about being nonbinary or trans is having people casually deny your existence.

But bless your little heart.

That's very condescending. I assume that was your intent, but why be hostile?

In terms of gender not many people see themselves as completely male or female though do they?

Most people don't define themselves by their gender because what difference does it make to my life to announce myself as non-binary in terms of gender? I'll still have periods, have a risk of cervical cancer etc.

I wholeheartedly support the OP's partner embracing and exploring his gender fluidity. Why shouldn't he have the opportunity to let his inner feminine essence out for one night?

Why didn't they ask for transmen? Everyone always forgets them. Or any of the other genders?

What sort of an event specifically needs naked non-binary people? I'm intrigued. But trying not to picture it.

When you said clothing was optional, OP, I assumed you meant it didn't matter what you wore. I'm too innocent for this world.

Could someone explain non binary for me? If it's about simply conforming to extreme gender stereotypes (barbie doll or action man) then I think I'm none binary too. Today I'm wearing a man's shirt, black jeans and boots but I have quite long hair and wear eyeliner. How does one know if one is binary or non binary? Genuine question.

I’ve yet to hear a definition of non binary that makes sense, and doesn’t rely on stereotypes.

I’m not wearing a bra or makeup today, but I will tomorrow. So that makes me non binary, yes? I swear like a sailor and tell offensive jokes but also offer hugs and hair strokes to my friends. I behave in ways that are stereotypically male and female.

So does pretty much everyone.

CURRENT AFFAIRS
Britain has its first reported genderfluid police officer

JOSH JACKMANMAY 23, 2017

BOOKMARK ARTICLE

Britain can welcome its first reported genderfluid police officer, it has been announced.

The PC has two warrant cards, and can use either depending on which gender they identify with on any given day.

Known only as Callum or Abi, the Metropolitan Police officer served on the force for 13 years as a man.

Now the London-based officer has won the right to express their gender identity in the way they wish.

The groundbreaking step is part of a Met Police drive to encourage staff to be themselves at work.

The officer’s gender identity was revealed in an internal message to the Met’s 43,607 police and civilian staff last week, titled “Bring Your Whole Self to Work,” The Sun has reported.

They spoke about what it felt like to finally come into work as a woman, saying: “The first time I walked into a Met building as Abi, I was hyperventilating so much I almost passed out.

“I’ve done it a handful of times since, and felt so happy that I got to be me at work.”

They emphasised: “Abi is a part of me that exists and I want that part to be recognised and validated.

“But I’m still me. I’m still the same person whether I’m presenting as Callum or Abi.

“It’s the same dice.

“You’re just looking at a different number.”

Last year, a genderfluid actress made Academy Awards history by being in contention for both the male and female categories.

Kelly Mantle, best known for appearing on the sixth season of RuPaul’s Drag Race,earned the honour of being considered for both awardswith their role in comedy Confessions of a Womaniser.

More from PinkNews
www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/05/23/britain-has-its-first-reported-genderfluid-police-officer/

Give the poor organisers a break. This is revolutionary stuff. How can you express gender identity whilst naked? How do we measure the “vibe” in the perfectly balanced gender dynamic?

OP, please report back?

How does one know if one is binary or non binary?

It's like this feeling deep inside. You just know. Or maybe it's my heartburn.

I am guessing that 'gender identity' is about feeling, as it's distinct from 'gender expression', which is about ... how you dress and how long your hair is?

How is it to feel like a woman? Other than - well, you know, childbirth etc.

What is it like? Can you describe it?

How can you know how others feel about it?

How can you express gender identity whilst naked?

I think my idea of pronoun badges fastened to nipples is still a good one.

allAssassinatedBeauty wrote:

male/female refer to sex not gender.

Thanks for the civil response. Male and female can refer to sex, but can also refer to gender identity.

Gender is societal and cultural

Here's the explanation that makes the most sense to me, based on my own lived experience and reading/thinking about the issue:

• Gender identity is something in the brain. In most people it matches their biological sex, but not always.

• Gender expression is how people express their gender identity. The particular signifiers are indeed cultural and changing. But that doesn't make them meaningless. It's sort of like language: The particular sounds in a word are arbitrary, but we still use language to express meaning.

Your gender identity might be non-binary, which tells people about how you identify and what you believe.

Exactly.

It doesn't say anything about what sex you are.

True. But that's between me and my doctor, and my spouse. :-)

This might be a slight tangent-- but I had understood previously that naturism/nudism is just about being comfortable in one's natural state, and not a sexual thing.

But if that's the case, why does it matter whether the people who turn up to be naked are male or female?

One of the weirder things about being nonbinary or trans is having people casually deny your existence.

No one has denied your existence though. If anything, people have said that everyone (other than trans men and women I suppose) is non-binary gender-wise. The opposite of denying your existence really.