Pushback at Wi Spa in Los Angeles

[FannyCann]

Well it's all kicking off at the spa. An amazing woman behind the desk standing up for women and telling a man where to take his penis. I fear she will lose her job over this but it's a glorious way to go.

twitter.com/stillgray/status/1408997169344909313?s=21

"A woman in LA went viral this week when she complained about seeing a biological male in a female changing room. She said she doesn’t want to see a “dick” when she’s getting changed. That isn’t transphobia — it’s perfectly reasonable, says Brendan O’Neill"

t.co/CxPpFA68zc

Among the replies to Penny's latest diatribe, I found this infographic which some on here may find useful:
twitter.com/catsiesXX/status/1410047436190457859/photo/1

Sorry to continue the class question but wouldn’t someone who went to private school be upper class rather than middle? I mean it is only 6% of children that have that privilege so not really “middle” I would have thought??? So isn’t LP really upper class?

What constitutes upper class nowadays if not the level of wealth that enables a private education?

The news recently has had loads of pieces about sexual assault and rape in expensive schools. It happens in all schools of course. The point though is the money doesn't protect them.

Privileged boys also, as we see with things like Weinstein, that newspaper editor, countless sports people including boys who are good at that, and ones who are rich and expect to have the world at their feet, can be prone to massive entitlement when it comes to sex. They think they should have anything they want. They believe they are untouchable.

Girls who go to those schools still can be victims of CSA, they use public transport, go out in the evening, go around the place to the shops, go clubbing etc.

I can't understand why there seems to be this idea that they live such a different life they are immune to men and boys doing shit/ awful things to them.

Anyway.

I think women of any class who say things like LP are just horrible. Rather than because they have never encountered dodgy men.

Is it easier to think that women who are full on twaw and say stuff like this

Haven't any personal experience of what men can do

Rather than face up to the fact that they are doing this because... Well fuck knows why. Because they care about men more than women.

@Novelusername

My take on liberal feminism is that ultimately it comes from a place of privilege and a false sense of empowerment. It's no surprise to me that most of the women who espouse those views are well educated and come from socio-economically comfortable backgrounds.

As a woman from what can only be described as a rough background, but who has also been to a couple of decent universities and thus mixed with a lot of women like Laurie Penny, I always found it striking how different middle class culture is to working class culture. Really, we may as well be from different countries. In my experience, virtue signalling has always been a distinctly middle class past-time, and the 'difficult' questions are always brushed off in much the same way as Penny did, because these individuals are too sheltered and sensitive to even consider harsh realities, and in any case, they have no skin in the game so why should their fantasy of self-aggrandising self-righteousness be interrupted by the truth? I truly believe that a lot of these young, middle class women have absolutely no idea how the lives of women less fortunate than themselves are so different to their own. They've never dealt with their teenage friends being pimped out as teenagers, having to walk everywhere and thus dealing with street harassment on the daily, living in areas where there are a lot of immigrant men who will grope you at the swimming baths or on the street, or sexually assault you on your way home from work, having to live in a homeless shelter and walk past all the drunk and drug addict men to get to the women's floor, having a landlord willing to take sex in exchange for money, having bricks put through your windows by the male teenage neighbour who is harassing you, having a violent father and then attracting predatory, abusive men because they can sniff out your vulnerability (these are all things that have happened to me, btw, not fantasies). They just have absolutely no idea what a lot of women go through, they are incredibly privileged, and so they tell us we need to put up and shut up, stop being mean to the most vulnerable people in society: men, who just want to get their dicks out in front of women and children in female only spaces. Women like me are just collateral in their neo-religious crusade. Fuck her, I can guarantee she hates herself almost as much as she hates women like me.

I’m not sure whether I’m working or middle class but I think I wouldn’t say that I don’t realise how different the lives of women less fortunate than me are more I didn’t realise how widespread it is. (Although I’m not speaking as someone who knew what was happening to any great extent and thought nothing of it)

The most vocal twaw woman I know IRL is

Not white
Not wealthy

She agrees that sexism insidious at work and then in the next breath says it's not right to ask the sex of people at work when it's gathered for diversity reasons.

'I’m not sure whether I’m working or middle class but I think I wouldn’t say that I don’t realise how different the lives of women less fortunate than me are more I didn’t realise how widespread it is. (Although I’m not speaking as someone who knew what was happening to any great extent and thought nothing of it)'

I can't imagine anyone would disagree with that.

It's the point that women who say stuff like LP the response is often well middle class not in situations where it's mixed sex/ dodgy men etc.

Assuming it's not because LP has never encountered any dodgy male behaviour as it's really unlikely.

What could the reasons be?

Eye to career
Eye to popularity
Eye to the views of her friendship groups etc
Can't backtrack as gone too far

Could be the dynamic I've seen from way too far women at work in my career.

The ones who say sexism never held me back
If a man was badly behaved I told him off
I'm strong and don't get this stuff
Feminism is damaging to women makes them look weak
Men like s bit of banter in the workplace I don't mind/ join in/ don't get offended

Etc etc

There's a lot of them about. She could be one of them.

[quote DdraigGoch]Among the replies to Penny's latest diatribe, I found this infographic which some on here may find useful:
twitter.com/catsiesXX/status/1410047436190457859/photo/1[/quote]
This is what I’ve been saying: it’s accepted that we segregate men/boys from women/girls for toilets/changing rooms etc and no-one thinks anything of it, generally no-one thinks it’s discriminatory (unless they’re just so accustomed to it, they don’t even think about it?) but as soon as you say TW should be segregated from women the accusations fly and the gay comparison gets wheeled out.

[quote Campervan69]"A woman in LA went viral this week when she complained about seeing a biological male in a female changing room. She said she doesn’t want to see a “dick” when she’s getting changed. That isn’t transphobia — it’s perfectly reasonable, says Brendan O’Neill"

t.co/CxPpFA68zc[/quote]
Trans activists are now defending the right of men to show their genitals to young girls.

Yep.

Can't backtrack as gone too far

Twitter comment that resonated:

Channeling Sun Tzu, there's no honourable retreat from TWAW/TMAM/NBAV. You have to die in that particular ditch, which is why the struggle is going to have to be attritional.

twitter.com/mcdonnelljp/status/1409831006924836865?s=20

I'd like to think people have a face-saving way back from the dangerous ground they're on but some people just don't want to take the escape option when rationality would compel them to take the exit.

I can't understand why there seems to be this idea that they live such a different life they are immune to men and boys doing shit/ awful things to them.
No-one is saying they're immune, but the kind of abuse, or the ways in for abusers, is probably different. Poverty and financial dependence are big factors in making women vulnerable. Also, middle class kids tend to be more confident in themselves in standing up for their rights, have more awareness of their self-worth and thus less prone to attract predators (I'm speaking very generally of course). None of these things make middle class girls immune to abuse, but like I said, poverty and class bring other issues that intersect to make women more vulnerable to male violence and abuse.

A worrying amount of white men in the UK harbour resentment about women (and other groups) getting 'special treatment'.

I've met loads of men like this and it doesn't take much to bring it all tumbling out.

That's also an awful lot of men who seem to feel hostile towards women and girls in general.

They love it when they can say ha ha you wanted equality so it's your own fault.

From 'you wanted to be equal so I can punch you in the face now!' types

To

See how you like it when your precious female things have to let men in! (They're thinking of more women in pubs, women's sports on the telly, more women with more better jobs in the workplace, etc etc, which they subconsciously see as women invading their spaces).

That sort of stuff.

Many men seem to have a thing where they care about their female relatives, friends etc. But all the other women are not important/ seen as people. Hence all the objectification etc which they would find outrageous if it was their daughter.

That sort of thing.

The pleasure at seeing women 'taken down a peg or 2' or 'getting s taste of their own medicine' is pretty widespread.

@Novelusername

I can't understand why there seems to be this idea that they live such a different life they are immune to men and boys doing shit/ awful things to them. No-one is saying they're immune, but the kind of abuse, or the ways in for abusers, is probably different. Poverty and financial dependence are big factors in making women vulnerable. Also, middle class kids tend to be more confident in themselves in standing up for their rights, have more awareness of their self-worth and thus less prone to attract predators (I'm speaking very generally of course). None of these things make middle class girls immune to abuse, but like I said, poverty and class bring other issues that intersect to make women more vulnerable to male violence and abuse.

The reason this is being discussed is because LP tweeted some stuff that is just shit.

On this thread one or more posters said that it was likely because she had never/ would never be exposed to dodgy /or worse behaviour from men.

I think it feels better to think she's clueless rather than face up to it being another reason.

No one disagrees that if you add poverty/ disability or other axes of oppression things can be much worse.

It's a mistake to think that any woman or girl is immune to the behaviour of awful men. It's a poor reason to explain women who say stuff like LP.

@NiceGerbil

A worrying amount of white men in the UK harbour resentment about women (and other groups) getting 'special treatment'.

I've met loads of men like this and it doesn't take much to bring it all tumbling out.

That's also an awful lot of men who seem to feel hostile towards women and girls in general.

They love it when they can say ha ha you wanted equality so it's your own fault.

From 'you wanted to be equal so I can punch you in the face now!' types

To

See how you like it when your precious female things have to let men in! (They're thinking of more women in pubs, women's sports on the telly, more women with more better jobs in the workplace, etc etc, which they subconsciously see as women invading their spaces).

That sort of stuff.

Many men seem to have a thing where they care about their female relatives, friends etc. But all the other women are not important/ seen as people. Hence all the objectification etc which they would find outrageous if it was their daughter.

That sort of thing.

The pleasure at seeing women 'taken down a peg or 2' or 'getting s taste of their own medicine' is pretty widespread.

@NiceGerbil So true. I can see an ex-manager of mine disagreeing with a lot of what's going on right now, but inwardly chuckling that we silly bitches deserve it. He didn't like feminists, as you can imagine.

NiceGerbil Money and mixing in the right sort of circles in Oxford is undoubtedly safer than being an impoverished woman having to walk through an inner city housing estate alone late every night on your way home from work, though. Having a solid upbringing with a family that teaches you how to stand up for yourself gives you an advantage over the impoverished woman who was beaten up by her dad and only taught to cower in deference at male abusers. I don't think what I'm saying is in the least bit controversial here, and I'm not saying middle class women can't be abused by men, because of course they can, but undoubtedly, poorer women are placed in a lot more situations where they are less sheltered from the dregs of humanity.

Being homeless or having a violent family where you have to run out the house and walk the street or spend time in the library like I used to makes you vulnerable prey to men in the public sphere who sniff out that vulnerability. Abusers seek out the weak, the poorer you are, the more abused you have been already, the more emotionally wounded, the more likely you are to be targeted. That's the main issue, I think, about being female and poor, having to be in spaces where you are vulnerable and out in public with men you'd rather avoid - if you have even a small amount of money you can buy yourself a bit more privacy and protection away from public spaces.

But that's not why this point was raised!

To explain why LP posted what she did!

This is heading into Oppression Olympics territory. As I said earlier I think the whole White feminism, bastardisation of intersectionality, oppression points stuff has seeped in.

And it's not productive.

There is pretty much always someone in the world worse off than you.

It is an error to believe that in general girls in families with more money are... Unlikely? To have parents who are addicted to alcohol or drugs. Be in a home with DV. Be a victim of CSA. Be vulnerable for a variety of reasons. Be raped by a male friend or classmate etc etc.

I'm lost as to why you're pressing this.

When you read the news about the levels of sexual violence rape etc in some of the poshest schools there are. And how nothing was done because they have their reputations to protect.

Did you think... What did you think?

Women and girls get shit all the time all over the world. Some shit is worse than other shit but it's all shit and it's because we're female.

And again!

Why are you pressing this point?

No one disagrees that women and girls in some situations are more vulnerable than those in others.

I don't agree that middle class girls are pretty much protected from certain male behaviour.

'Being homeless or having a violent family where you have to run out the house and walk the street or spend time in the library like I used to makes you vulnerable prey to men in the public sphere who sniff out that vulnerability. Abusers seek out the weak, the poorer you are, the more abused you have been already, the more emotionally wounded, the more likely you are to be targeted.'

Why do you think that girls whose parents have money aren't violent?

Why do you think girls from those households don't hide, avoid going home, spend nights in dangerous situations?

I don't understand tbh.

Anyone can have a shit home life.

I mean this is a massive derail but, I don't understand where you're coming from.

I do understand why being in poverty, where you live, disability, race etc multiplies the shit.

I don't understand why you think money in the family protects girls completely from DV in the home, addiction, sexual abuse, coercive / exploitative boyfriends, etc etc

It's really really not the same at all and it sounds to me like you're being defensive. It's not oppression Olympics, what I'm stating is fact. I went to school with both middle class and working class girls, both were friends. Of the working class girls, of the top of my head there was prostitution, violence at home, broken homes, abusive and violent relationships with older men and none of these things happened with my middle class friends. Poorer women are more vulnerable, and women like Penny don't give a fuck because they're better off.

I don't understand why you think money in the family protects girls completely from DV in the home, addiction, sexual abuse, coercive / exploitative boyfriends, etc etc Please don't make shit up, I keep saying of course they can be abused too.