The use of the term 'trans widow'

[aibubaby]

I've found this term in poor taste ever since I saw it, and this article I've seen on Twitter is a great look at why.

rachelemoss.com/2021/06/24/a-letter-to-trans-widows-from-an-actual-widow/

Marriages end all the time because one spouse isn't who the other thought they were. It's sad or heartbreaking or difficult, and people have (obviously) got the right to grieve for a relationship which is no longer the same. But it isn't a death and it's thoughtless to describe it as though it is.

Nearly all women over 30 who transition to men have led butch lesbian lives prior to transitioning. There aren’t a lot of trans widowers. There are plenty of confused and angry lesbian and partners left behind.
My partner and I cohabitate and loved together for four years. Technically, I am not a widow, as we never married. I still feel like a widow, though I have no claim to that honorable title. I’m proceeding through many widow related activities, except for collecting Social Security.

@Ericaequites

Nearly all women over 30 who transition to men have led butch lesbian lives prior to transitioning. There aren’t a lot of trans widowers. There are plenty of confused and angry lesbian and partners left behind. My partner and I cohabitate and loved together for four years. Technically, I am not a widow, as we never married. I still feel like a widow, though I have no claim to that honorable title. I’m proceeding through many widow related activities, except for collecting Social Security.

I think Lesbian trans widows are still the unheard voices in this. I've tried to start a conversation about it but with virtually zero success as lesbians seem to just not want to talk about it. I think in some ways their position is probably even worse than ours because we can generally expect to have the support of our friends where are lesbian trans widows are likely to lose their friends in the LGBT+ community.

@aibubaby
I don't much care whether you were 'with me' or not. I accept that I posted something without knowledge of a community of relevant posters here and I accept that they might find that upsetting, and I apologised for speaking on behalf of all widows. I've taken on board comments posted and will - genuinely - read some of the resources posted here. But I had a question, and I posted it in the area of the site that questions like this are apparently allowed, and now I'm being told I'm a dickhead for doing so.

But you didn't even try to find out anything before you posted. Or is your google broken?
Any research at all would have brought up quite a lot of information of which you were entirely ignorant, before you marched in to tell us all what awful people we are.

Good grief (and I'm only saying that prissy thing because anything stronger will get me reported).

Tinsel’s site comes up top of Google results for searches on trans widows.

@Vanishun

Ohhhh it's just twigged for me that this is of course the latest new push from the TRAs.

Get feminism here cut up (and hopefully get rid of the feminists) ... then double down on policing the language here (and hopefully get rid of the community of transwidows).

I hope @MNHQ tell them to fuck right off with that.

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen...☹️☹️

@EmpressWitchDoesntBurn

Tinsel’s site comes up top of Google results for searches on trans widows.

In fairness, google searches are affected by what you've previously searched, so that may not be true for everyone. But nevertheless, it's not exactly hard to discover, either way.

@Vanishun

Ohhhh it's just twigged for me that this is of course the latest new push from the TRAs.

Get feminism here cut up (and hopefully get rid of the feminists) ... then double down on policing the language here (and hopefully get rid of the community of transwidows).

I hope @MNHQ tell them to fuck right off with that.

This is exactly what is going on, and it is not surprising at all.

Disappointing, but not surprising. Of course they're not on their purified feminism chat talking about important feminist topics. Instead they're trying to cut cut cut piece by piece until we're gone.

We see you.

[quote StrangeLookingParasite]@aibubaby
I don't much care whether you were 'with me' or not. I accept that I posted something without knowledge of a community of relevant posters here and I accept that they might find that upsetting, and I apologised for speaking on behalf of all widows. I've taken on board comments posted and will - genuinely - read some of the resources posted here. But I had a question, and I posted it in the area of the site that questions like this are apparently allowed, and now I'm being told I'm a dickhead for doing so.

But you didn't even try to find out anything before you posted. Or is your google broken?
Any research at all would have brought up quite a lot of information of which you were entirely ignorant, before you marched in to tell us all what awful people we are.

Good grief (and I'm only saying that prissy thing because anything stronger will get me reported).[/quote]
Shall I pop over to all the health and beauty section and tell them all to stop discussing the best hair curlers cos we can just google it? I was starting a discussion, with other people. I got one.
I didn't realise you could only start a thread here if you agreed with the prevailing attitude of posters here.

I've learned a lot from this thread, I am deeply sorry to the people who were hurt by reading the thread and to the people who have experienced grief and loss in all its forms. I appreciate that my opinion might have been hurtful and certainly isn't as important as people's actual experiences.

At the risk of being accused of tone policing - absolutely nobody owes me a gentle explanation or a handhold through your views, I'm well aware, but it's clear that there's very little room in this topic for anyone perceived as against the collective 'we' you mention in your post. As many people have asked me why I posted as have shared reasons why they think I'm wrong. The latter is useful or enlightening or productive from a discussion point of view. The former just makes me wonder what the point of the board is.

OP - if you want to debate, you need to contribute to it. Those who have strong opinions on this have shared their views and you have nothing to share except a piece you found on Twitter. If you are sticking to your original view - then why don’t you defend it robustly and clearly?

People are suggesting that you should have had a think about your opinion before you started the debate - to avoid being embarrassed when you realised you hadn’t thought it through and had likely caused offence.

I was abused to the point I felt like I wasn’t human anymore. I suffer probably life long amnesia. I’ll call whoever I want whatever I want Thankyou.

for you, ProudExclu

@aibubaby

Shall I pop over to all the health and beauty section and tell them all to stop discussing the best hair curlers cos we can just google it? I was starting a discussion, with other people. I got one.
I didn't realise you could only start a thread here if you agreed with the prevailing attitude of posters here.

You put your pronouncements on this on the same level as hair curlers? Right then.
And it's not about agreement, it's about knowing what you're talking about.

Mmm I would suggest criticizing people who have in many cases left what I’d regard as pretty abusive marriages warrants a bit of thought up front if you want to think of yourself as a decent person, which I expect you do @aibubaby ?

And it's not about agreement, it's about knowing what you're talking about

I think that rightly people are defending a very ‘vulnerable’ group.

Mnhq move a support group onto a different board, virtually sign posts it and offers it up for ‘debate’

Online there are death threats made and on mumsnet mnhq think its perfectly ok to allow two threads to be made about how awful transwidows are for using the term….all three of these things happen within the space of a week

Theyve basically taken the ‘support’ from the issue, regular posters are angry and upset by this and it without question feels like an attack…whether is intended as one or not

But what if your husband ceased to exist? That's like a death, isn't it? That seems to be what happens to a lot of trans widows. Their husband ceases to be and even denies the past, doesn't want it mentioned.

The 'this is insensitive, someone may feel hurt' is verging too close to 'be kind' for my liking.

But tell us, OP, what pithy, descriptive little phrase would you use to describe women in trans widows' situation?

I've taken on board comments posted and will - genuinely - read some of the resources posted here.
You've still not looked at them? People took time and trouble to refer you to those resources.
So it would appear you're as uninformed as you were two days ago but you've come back anyway?

Righto

By the way it's called 'Style and Beauty' and you would get your arse handed to you there too.

As I said one page 2. I think you should actually read some of the testimonies before you 'enagage' again.
Now. If you have time to form numerous replies you have time to read them.
I don't see the point in anyone engaging with you further until you have done so.

Not taking it to aibu either. It's been done.

Do what you said you would. Read. Learn. Process.

Then we can talk.
Until then I'll assume that you intended harm to the community that found a safespace on Mumsnet. You have the rest of the internet.

@aibubaby I just wanted to encourage you to read the links. Some of them are horrific.

From reading your posts I believe that you posted this a genuine question without thinking further about it. I am afraid that the main instinct here is to protect some regular posters who have been through a horrific time.

These posters, the transwidows as they call themselves, have gone through a massively traumatic time. In addition, many have received death threats and rape threats and feel that they are unable to speak about their experiences in real life (everyone is on the side of the brave transwoman) or online (death threats, rape threats, doxxing). There is a small section on MN where they have found some support.

When the article you linked was posted, one of them was again exposed to online threats. Most here feel very protective of them - and of all women. There is another thread where there are both actual widows and transwidows and the name is being discussed, mostly respectfully and understanding. I believe some initial misunderstandings also have been cleared up.

If you genuinely want to know more about this, DM me and I will try to answer. As I am not a transwidow I am less sensitive on this topic and I would genuinely like to raise awareness around transwidows. Again, they are very amazing and wonderful women who have been through hell.

I'd just add to that, re why there were questions as to why you started this thread, that apart from a nasty history of attack on these women (who are, remember, in a situation not of their own making), there is at the moment in the U.K. specific threat to the small but vital concession to their rights, the Spousal Exit Clause. This right has, I think, already been summarily removed in Scotland.
So, the probability of a thread like this not being entirely in good faith was quite high.

uncommongroundmedia.com/spousal-exit-clause/

Just to add to Errol’s point if that is a bit too specific for an initial look…

Transwomen want to be able to transition whilst remaining married and turning a heterosexual marriage into a homosexual marriage without the other party’s consent. In theory, women could then be trapped until the marriage was dissolved and there may be some difficulties to do that, especially for religious women or if the transwoman insists on staying married.

Transwidows just want to be able to have their marriage terminated if the partner transitions. They want a way to be able to say yes or no to the change from heterosexual marriage to homosexual marriage.

In no way do they want to stop a transition, they just don’t want to be stuck in a marriage where the transition happened without anyone consulting them.

So many not in good faith threads are started that I refuse to fall for the faux naïveté any longer.

I am very sorry for Rachel’s loss. It is devastating to lose a loved one to suicide, as far too many of us know. But her grief doesn’t give her the right to dictate how other people perceive their world.

I agree with all of this. I too mourn the untimely deaths of people I love. But I was surprised that Rachel used her own grief as a stick to beat other women with, eg her angry responses to the few commenters on her site who showed some sympathy for transwidows.

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

And it's not about agreement, it's about knowing what you're talking about

I think that rightly people are defending a very ‘vulnerable’ group.

Mnhq move a support group onto a different board, virtually sign posts it and offers it up for ‘debate’

Online there are death threats made and on mumsnet mnhq think its perfectly ok to allow two threads to be made about how awful transwidows are for using the term….all three of these things happen within the space of a week

Theyve basically taken the ‘support’ from the issue, regular posters are angry and upset by this and it without question feels like an attack…whether is intended as one or not

Rufus this is an important post and one that I think MNHQ should be aware of. They appear happy to remove what they describe as 'NITS' posts from one side of the 'debate', but the other side is free to attack and insult those who have GC beliefs.

It's for those affected to decide and nobody else. If you read some of the accounts from trans widows on here i think it's perfectly understandable why they would use that term. It's not just a case of 'your life changing from this point on' as the above article suggests - many are asked to entirely 'erase' their own history - eg. wedding pictures to be hidden/destroyed along with anything else that might trigger a reminder of the past, which their partner wants to believe now longer exists.
While Rachels' loss is heart breaking I think she makes quite a lot of assumptions about what trans widows think/feel/experience, and what their views are, which doesn't tally with what I've read on here from people trying to deal with this experience.

They appear happy to remove what they describe as 'NITS' posts from one side of the 'debate', but the other side is free to attack and insult those who have GC beliefs.

They will delete clearly NITS posts and personal attacks if they're reported.
I think there's a tendency for us to only delete the most egregious examples, as most of us aren't fans of #nodebate, and examples left in place can be illuminating for lurkers. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of own goals.