Thankyou Laurel Hubbard

[ferretface]

I am active on a sports related site where there is currently a lively debate on trans inclusion in sport thanks to Ms. Hubbard and the IOC rules which allow her participation.

I think it's the first time I've felt safe to put my views on the importance of sex based categories in sports to my actual name (the site is largely full of reasonable and respectful people, even if there is a lively debate). Even more hearteningly I'm watching the scales drop from some people's eyes as the debate progresses. Once you see the problem, you can't unsee it.

So thankyou, Laurel Hubbard. Just sorry that the Olympic dreams of a young woman in her 20s had to be dashed to give you your spot and give this issue the visibility that will lead to change.

Agreed but I can't bring myself to thank a cheat so I'll thank the NZ officials

The main thread has gone?!

Thank you, the IOC.

Your batshit definition of 'female' and 'woman' and your wacky kerraaaayzee rules over who is allowed how much testosterone, are about to ping back onto your stupid weaselly faces. In the manner of an egg, via catapult.

Absolutely gutting for the sportswoman whose place was given to Hubbard.

True, it's the IOC who have enabled this madness, Laurel is just acting within the rules, unethical though they may be.

TRA twitter went relatively quiet when this news went viral - it is logically indefensible and you have to be a true TWAW fundamentalist to think it is wonderful.

Disappointing it wasn't the idea of women's safety in prisons, refuges and medical settings that triggered a discussion instead of losing sport places and medals.

The main thread has gone?!
Isn't this the main thread?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4277568-Laurel-Hubbard-is-the-beginning-of-the-end-of-women-s-sports

Disappointing it wasn't the idea of women's safety in prisons, refuges and medical settings that triggered a discussion instead of losing sport places and medals.
So true.

"Disappointing it wasn't the idea of women's safety in prisons, refuges and medical settings that triggered a discussion instead of losing sport places and medals."

Extremely true. I think it's something about the visibility of this particular issue and the Olympics, which in itself is sad and says a lot about our priorities as a society.

It's like people's mental picture of a trans person being a particular teenage transgirl having a high media profile is being replaced with one of Laurel Hubbard.

When it comes to Laurel Hubbard, the meaning of "trans" starts to look very different.

Weren't people saying here years ago that the next big leap in awareness would be sport rather than anything else, for the simple reason that men would sit up, pay attention, and then start saying "hang on, that doesn't look fair to me".

I get why NZ is doing this - but I would never have pegged them for that sort of gamesmen/women. It’s just not cricket etc...

It's interesting - assuming any forward thought or planning went into this at all, Laurel is either a genius or epic-fail of a "first".

If they can get acceptance for Laurel, with the obvious physical advantages (and I'm sorry because it shouldn't be necessary to comment on someone's physical appearance but here we are), and minor external evidence of "transition", then acceptance is surely there for the taking for everyone.

Alternatively, the IOC have their head in their hands and are cursing NZ for all the sunlight that's pouring in.

I’m glad it’s come out into the open. Hopefully it makes the IOC think.

@nauticant

It's like people's mental picture of a trans person being a particular teenage transgirl having a high media profile is being replaced with one of Laurel Hubbard.

When it comes to Laurel Hubbard, the meaning of "trans" starts to look very different.

So true, from swishy haired, beautifully made up, soft voiced instagrammers to reality. Clearly some people missed the Pip Bunce and Karen White discussions, but Laurel has really made people sit up and think.

I’ve had people comment on it to me - the same people who were rolling their eyes and saying ‘these things don’t happen’ not that long ago. And they are proper pissed about it.

Apologies if this has already been covered somewhere else but could someone explain the testosterone rules to me?

I heard Nicola Williams from Fair Play for Women state that Hubbard had a broken arm last year so absolutely unheard of to compete in weightlifting after that, unless you are a male in the female category.

Ihopeyourcakeisshit, the reduction in testosterone is irrelevant.
Males do not shrink their broad shoulder girdle, widen their pelvis, reduce their lung volume and cardiac output, reduce their oxygen carrying capacity or proportion of fast twitch muscle fibres, however low their testosterone. They retain a totally unfair advantage over female competitors- which is why they should never be allowed into women’s sport.

@WinterIsGone

The main thread has gone?! Isn't this the main thread? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4277568-Laurel-Hubbard-is-the-beginning-of-the-end-of-women-s-sports

Disappointing it wasn't the idea of women's safety in prisons, refuges and medical settings that triggered a discussion instead of losing sport places and medals.
So true.

No, the other main one I posted twice on it this morning and it has disappeared, had about 700 posts.

It's obviously a popular topic. What was the deletion message?

This is the first time I’ve felt ok to put my views (and this picture) openly on my Facebook - and I’ve had nothing but positive comments on the post.

I think a huge amount of people have a particular mental image of trans women, and they don’t look like this. I’m glad this is out in the open now. They say a picture is worth a thousand words…

Yes I'm well aware of the physical differences babdoc.
If there is some kind of rule regarding testosterone levels, I wanted that explaining.

@Ihopeyourcakeisshit

Apologies if this has already been covered somewhere else but could someone explain the testosterone rules to me?

It’s actually really hard to find out for sure as a lot of the articles are saying “below the allowed range” for Laurel Hubbard rather than give an actual number. (Funny that!) But here goes:-

Female “normal range” - 0.2 - 2 nanomoles per litre.
Male “normal range” - 9 - 32 nanomoles per litre.

Trans women need to be under 10 nanomoles per litre.

Some sources are saying the 10 has been reduced to 5 but others are saying that this was proposed but rejected by the IOC.

So - if 5 is correct - then trans women Can have testosterone about 5 times that of an average woman and about a quarter of that of an average woman.

If 10 is correct then it is 10 times that of an average woman and half that of an average man. And a level of testosterone that is within normal ranges for men. (And 5 times the top of the normal range for women.)

So - transwomen have male bone density, male height, male muscle development and closer to male than female testosterone.

Laurel Hubbard does have a pony tail though so that’s ok.

The name we all need to be saying though is Kuinini Manumua. The Tongan weightlifter who lost her space as a result. This is a picture of her. mobile.twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1406992665644830725

She is known as Nini. We should all remember Nini.

@WinterIsGone

It's obviously a popular topic. What was the deletion message?

It's back!

Laurel Hubbard to go to Tokyo www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4237143-Laurel-Hubbard-to-go-to-Tokyo

This needs stamped on hard and fast. Because if NewZealand get away with it, the only way for any country to have a hope of beating them is to get rid of their female athletes too, and replace them all with male bodied transgender ones. Women’s sport would be history.

@Babdoc

This needs stamped on hard and fast. Because if NewZealand get away with it, the only way for any country to have a hope of beating them is to get rid of their female athletes too, and replace them all with male bodied transgender ones. Women’s sport would be history.

I'm pretty sure that the Iranian women's football team have a few TW.