Thankyou Laurel Hubbard

[ferretface]

I am active on a sports related site where there is currently a lively debate on trans inclusion in sport thanks to Ms. Hubbard and the IOC rules which allow her participation.

I think it's the first time I've felt safe to put my views on the importance of sex based categories in sports to my actual name (the site is largely full of reasonable and respectful people, even if there is a lively debate). Even more hearteningly I'm watching the scales drop from some people's eyes as the debate progresses. Once you see the problem, you can't unsee it.

So thankyou, Laurel Hubbard. Just sorry that the Olympic dreams of a young woman in her 20s had to be dashed to give you your spot and give this issue the visibility that will lead to change.

@Babdoc

This needs stamped on hard and fast. Because if NewZealand get away with it, the only way for any country to have a hope of beating them is to get rid of their female athletes too, and replace them all with male bodied transgender ones. Women’s sport would be history.

I was chatting to my DH about this last night... We agreed that it needs to be stopped before all other countries join in (I know Iran and China are already on it) and then it becomes too difficult to undo all the policies.

Not sure it’s time to pop the champagne just yet.

Hubbard is 7th in world, so likely not to medal? Which would ‘prove’ there’s no advantage and women should just STFU.

(Facts from Wiki, I don’t follow the sport so apologies if that’s not right)

I am glad that it has become more mainstream to be able to talk about this.

It doesn't matter if Laurel gets a medal or not. Given advanced age and past injury it's possible they won't. Nini still loses her place on the team either way

Actually, if its ok to ask, has Laurel had surgery or does Laurel still have a penis?

Either way, I'm not in favour of this at all, but I don't think I've seen it mentioned anywhere.

There's never been an Olympic medallist in weightlifting over 40 and very very few in their 30s irrespective of sex. Its a young person's sport. Winners are overwelmingly under 30. Laurel being 7th in the world at 43 is a truly unique achievement which I hope gets explored by commentators.

Is there a TW competing in BMX for USA too? I'm sure I remember reading that.

@IHaveBrilloHair

Actually, if its ok to ask, has Laurel had surgery or does Laurel still have a penis?

Either way, I'm not in favour of this at all, but I don't think I've seen it mentioned anywhere.

You can see evidence on the image going around

Saw a really helpful visual of the testosterone level question, which I will attempt to share here:

Well that didn’t work!

The real problem is that NZ officials can just shrug their shoulders and say they are only following IOC rules...

I'm so fucked off with this shit

oh it does that all the time umbel.

You have to refresh the page after posting a picture

@nauticant

Weren't people saying here years ago that the next big leap in awareness would be sport rather than anything else, for the simple reason that men would sit up, pay attention, and then start saying "hang on, that doesn't look fair to me".

Quite!

Is anyone aware of any other transwomen qualifiers for this year's Olympics? I guess there's no obligation to disclose trans status so whether it gets detected is basically dependent on how well you pass? Passing having little to do with any performance advantages you might obtain by virtue of having been born male.

Does he not feel embarrassed? How can he not feel shame when he stands up against the women! I'm embarrassed for him

I can see it @umbel - that is an incredibly powerful graphic.

Is the Semenya line lower because that is what athletics sets?

Listened to the moral maze on this last night. My son and I spent most of it shouting at the radio, ' it's not cis, it's woman!! This word cis is a word I genuinely am starting to recoil from when I hear it, it's quite offensive as 'woman ' has worked very well before all of this

Thank you umbel. Those kind of data visualizations are really useful.

Disappointing it wasn't the idea of women's safety in prisons, refuges and medical settings that triggered a discussion instead of losing sport places and medals.

I give the benefit of the doubt to most normal people - that the above is so batshit, they cannot believe it. It took my DH ages to get his head round as he could not believe it to be true.

I hope this wakes people up and doesn’t normalise it...

I do worry that because LH may not get a medal that people think it’s ok. When it isn’t.

Nini Manumua is an OLYMPIAN.

'I'm not cheating, I am competing within the rules' was the line that RM/VI used when they became the women's world champion, despite being male, wasn't it?

Which is all very well, but who was it lobbying for rule changes and supplying 'evidence' that TW had no advantage over women in (un)sporting competitions?

@Mumoftwoinprimary

Is the Semenya line lower because that is what athletics sets?

Yes I think so - or I have seen it said that ioc decided to stick with 10, while iaaf have gone with 5 for trans women and women with semenyas condition. Most sport federations have gone with the ioc line, so athletics is different from the other sports.

The striking thing about the graph is that trans women can have more testosterone than naturally occurs in some healthy men(- though presumably they are not usually olympians) and miles more than any women.

Really, focusing on the position of the line detracts from the main point of the underlying unfairness of anyone who went through male puberty competing against women. It does illuatrate how little the policy considered women though.