Thankyou Laurel Hubbard

[ferretface]

I am active on a sports related site where there is currently a lively debate on trans inclusion in sport thanks to Ms. Hubbard and the IOC rules which allow her participation.

I think it's the first time I've felt safe to put my views on the importance of sex based categories in sports to my actual name (the site is largely full of reasonable and respectful people, even if there is a lively debate). Even more hearteningly I'm watching the scales drop from some people's eyes as the debate progresses. Once you see the problem, you can't unsee it.

So thankyou, Laurel Hubbard. Just sorry that the Olympic dreams of a young woman in her 20s had to be dashed to give you your spot and give this issue the visibility that will lead to change.

I believe 5nmol/L is the lot for male-born DSD athletes like Caster Semenya. 10nmol/L is for transwomen, meaning they are actually permitted higher levels than DSD athletes.

No, I don’t think that’s correct - transwomen have to comply with the 5 nmol/l limit.

www.worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=ace036ec-a21f-4a4a-9646-fb3c40fe80be.pdf&urlslug=C3.5%20-%20Eligibility%20Regulations%20Transgender%20Athletes

DSD athletes are restricted to 5 nmol/l for middle distance events (400m to 1 mile). I’m not sure if they are restricted at other distances though.

"An athlete's total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10 nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category."

This was the case when the Olympics were due to be held last year, unless it's changed since then?

www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1091417/ioc-guidelines-transgender-tokyo-2020

Why the fuck is everybody banging on about testosterone levels? You could remove every testosterone molecule in a man’s body and it still wouldn’t shrink his bloody shoulder girdle or femurs by a millimetre, or lower his lung volume or heart size.
The advantage of being male cannot be removed by tinkering round the edges with hormones. This is a deliberate distraction from the total unfairness of letting men into women’s sport.
Why are the authorities wilfully refusing to see this? Oh, wait…

Overall blood volume and muscle composition is also influenced by sex. Men have much higher vo2 max than women which isn't fully controlled by testosterone. Sex is literally written into every single cell of your body.

Yeah, women are not just men with oestrogen instead of testosterone! Shows how much women's sport is valued by the relevant governing bodies, that such a shoddy yardstick should be set. There is no way of making it fair or appropriate in the case of MtF athletes competing with women.

Totally agree, but while statistical proof is only slowly becoming available for the transwoman advantage, testosterone is a quantifiable number that can be used to show clear evidence of the unfairness. So, I don't think it's completely useless, just part of a broader picture.

(Obviously anyone with eyes who isn't totally dishonest knows the difference between men and women, but such is the world we live in where people will argue until they're blue in the face and demand 'evidence')

@Babdoc

Why the fuck is everybody banging on about testosterone levels? You could remove every testosterone molecule in a man’s body and it still wouldn’t shrink his bloody shoulder girdle or femurs by a millimetre, or lower his lung volume or heart size. The advantage of being male cannot be removed by tinkering round the edges with hormones. This is a deliberate distraction from the total unfairness of letting men into women’s sport. Why are the authorities wilfully refusing to see this? Oh, wait…

OK, now I know you're really angry - you so very rarely swear. And I agree with every word.

and if she were born in the UK today would most likely be raised as a boy

I'm always confused as to why anyone would think that Semenya was raised 'as a girl'.

The name we all need to be saying though is Kuinini Manumua. The Tongan weightlifter who lost her space as a result. This is a picture of her.
mobile.twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1406992665644830725

Is there any kind of crowdfunder for Kuinini, to compensate her in some way for the loss of her place? I Looked online but couldn’t find one.

I agree testosterone levels are a red herring, it is male puberty that makes the difference.
However I have a question about testosterone. I saw on twitter s couple of people stating that because Hubbard has had 'bottom' surgery the testosterone levels would be negligible. I'm not interested in debating whether he has or has not had the surgery I just want to know if those comments are factual. If the testes are removed do males stop producing testosterone?

If the testes are removed do males stop producing testosterone?

Not entirely, the adrenal glands would produce a minimal amount - with both balls off testosterone production would be minimal, a man would struggle to maintain an erection and he wouldn't be able to produce sperm. With one it's all ok.

Not sure about Hubbard but the image in the Times would suggest intact, at least from what I can see.

The reason the IOC made this idiotic decision in the first place is because a Canadian cyclist TW, who had had their testes removed, realised their male body could not function at elite athlete level, and therefore they could not compete, without testosterone. They asked the IOC to exempt them from doping regulations so they could take artificial testosterone. At the time, the IOC had permitted only post-op transpeople to compete in the Olympics. The TW athlete was claiming a human rights violation.The IOC did not want to provide this individual with a doping exemption and set a precedent, or get involved in litigation. So instead they adopted Joanna Harper's ridiculous report findings, and switched eligibility to a non surgery, reduced testosterone level based test.

@OrlaPeely

What is the response from those championing transwomen athletes to the fact that female to male trans athletes don't turn up in male sports at elite level. Surely this proves the physical advantages/disadvantages irrefutably? But I haven't seen it mentioned much.

I was going to ask this question when I'd read the thread, only probably not as well.

Personally, I'm hoping that Hubbard wins by a long margin.

I also hope this is replicated across the other Olympic events.

The world will not be able to not see the unfairness of it all. And then public debate can finally crack wide open. And I'm hoping for an outbreak of common sense on the back of it.

That's why there are no TW Olympic medal winners, even though TW have been allowed to compete in the Olympics since 2004. It's because, until the 2015 rule change, they had to have had the bottom surgery. On top of losing testosterone (essential to the metabolic function of a male body) I can't imagine training at an elite level whilst dealing with the aftermath of bottom surgery is all that comfortable. The 2015 rule change, replacing surgery with self ID and reduced testosterone, didn't come in in time for TW to fulfill the test prior to Rio 2016 (I think it takes some time for testosterone levels to drop, plus there was is a 4 year "living as a woman" type clause). Tokyo 2021 is the first real test of the rule change.

@Babdoc

Ihopeyourcakeisshit, the reduction in testosterone is irrelevant. Males do not shrink their broad shoulder girdle, widen their pelvis, reduce their lung volume and cardiac output, reduce their oxygen carrying capacity or proportion of fast twitch muscle fibres, however low their testosterone. They retain a totally unfair advantage over female competitors- which is why they should never be allowed into women’s sport.

This, absolutely this.

Personally, I'm hoping that Hubbard wins by a long margin.

Unfortunately, I think Hubbard is a useful Trojan horse. They are an old person in a young person's event. Good enough to beat women down the rankings, but probably not to beat the very best. They will lose, and TRAs will claim that we are all hysterical, and TW in elite sport is nothing to worry about. Then next time, it will be someone in their 20s, who sweeps the board.

@One Episode - I'm starting to feel a bit sorry for them too. I was looking up something I wanted to post yesterday, and came across an interview they did in 2017. I'd assumed they were a raging cheat exploiting the IOC rules, but they came across as someone who had well and truly swallowed the kool-aid, and genuinely believed they were doing nothing wrong. It's bizarre - with the weights they're lifting plus their age and history of injury, they would have to believe that they are the best female weightlifter that has ever lived. I really don't think that anyone encouraging them in this belief/endeavour is being kind at all. From the interview, they didn't seem like the sort of person who could take the level of scrutiny that's going to come from making themselves the 'poster girl' for TW in sport.

Then next time, it will be someone in their 20s, who sweeps the board.

I think the Paris 2024 Olympics are going to be extraordinary.

[quote TedImgoingmad]I would highly recommend listening to this interview with Canadian track and field champion, national coach and PhD in Kinesiology, Linda Blade. It gives you the batshit history of how we have got to where we are, and how easily the IOC threw away women's sport, to appease one or two transwomen. (Plus the fascinating fact that women used to have their own Olympic federation and held 4 international, women's only, Olympic Games during the 1920s/30s).

[/quote] Thank you for that link Ted Extremely illuminating. Gobsmacked doesn't begin to cover it!

@toffeebutterpopcorn

I get why NZ is doing this - but I would never have pegged them for that sort of gamesmen/women. It’s just not cricket etc...

It's the rules!

@TedImgoingmad

Personally, I'm hoping that Hubbard wins by a long margin.

Unfortunately, I think Hubbard is a useful Trojan horse. They are an old person in a young person's event. Good enough to beat women down the rankings, but probably not to beat the very best. They will lose, and TRAs will claim that we are all hysterical, and TW in elite sport is nothing to worry about. Then next time, it will be someone in their 20s, who sweeps the board.

This is my concern. There are quite a few people who manage to believe that it somehow proves the point that there’s no unfairness if an elite young woman who has trained to a peak of physical perfection for her sport can beat a mediocre, aging male bodied athlete who hasn’t had to train as hard, and who isn’t anyway endowed with the same physical blessings that make that woman exceptional in her field.

Nothing to see here.

These people also seem very keen to suppose positive intent, as well. If I were training or representing a trans athlete in the women’s category, I would absolutely advise them to throw a couple of events in order to trigger this exact response: “see? I don’t always win! How can it be unfair?”

Don’t they know that people getting to the Olympics will do pretty much anything they think they can get away with to get there? It’s very naive.

*I get why NZ is doing this - but I would never have pegged them for that sort of gamesmen/women. It’s just not cricket etc...

It's the rules!*

Under arm bowling was within the rules in 1981, maybe NZ should remember how it feels being at the receiving end of an action that is within the rules but extremely unsporting.

IOC are just so bloody hypocritical. We have had the big speeches about cleaning up sport, Sebastian Coe counts himself as Mr Clean. Drug misuse in sport is so embedded that transwomen is just another way of keeping a clean image whilst cheating. It's women therefore it doesn't matter.

Sport is a dirty business and those at the top are used to bending the rules.

I don't think Hubbard will win, but as Emma Barnett said to Joanna Harper, you can't really make predictions, the fact is Hubbard is competing and that is enough to displace a female. (I'll say her name again, Nini Manumua.)

If this Olympics isn't enough to show it then Paris should do it, there has already been a tweet about it being 'gender neutral'...but I really hope we don't have to wait that long though.

@Igneococcus

*I get why NZ is doing this - but I would never have pegged them for that sort of gamesmen/women. It’s just not cricket etc...

It's the rules!*

Under arm bowling was within the rules in 1981, maybe NZ should remember how it feels being at the receiving end of an action that is within the rules but extremely unsporting.

NZ isn't a person with feelings, it's a country. It isn't for one country to go against the code, that has to happen higher up.

Nothing to do with an historical cricket game.