Thankyou Laurel Hubbard

[ferretface]

I am active on a sports related site where there is currently a lively debate on trans inclusion in sport thanks to Ms. Hubbard and the IOC rules which allow her participation.

I think it's the first time I've felt safe to put my views on the importance of sex based categories in sports to my actual name (the site is largely full of reasonable and respectful people, even if there is a lively debate). Even more hearteningly I'm watching the scales drop from some people's eyes as the debate progresses. Once you see the problem, you can't unsee it.

So thankyou, Laurel Hubbard. Just sorry that the Olympic dreams of a young woman in her 20s had to be dashed to give you your spot and give this issue the visibility that will lead to change.

There's an excellent BBC radio series?/podcast? called Bloodsport, available on BBC Sounds, about institutionalised doping in sport. I'm not saying that being trans is the same as taking performance enhancing drugs - of course not. But it gives you an insight into the lengths countries are prepared to go to win medals. And also to the extent to which national sporting bodies are prepared to fuck over the athletes themselves...

If a woman had the levels of testosterone that LH has they would be investigated for doping, disqualified and stripped of any honours.

@BlueBrush

There's an excellent BBC radio series?/podcast? called Bloodsport, available on BBC Sounds, about institutionalised doping in sport. I'm not saying that being trans is the same as taking performance enhancing drugs - of course not. But it gives you an insight into the lengths countries are prepared to go to win medals. And also to the extent to which national sporting bodies are prepared to fuck over the athletes themselves...

This could lead to some quite horrifying abuses of young men actually.

Imagine a country that cares only for medals and not for the athletes. Ex top junior boy who is now not quite good enough to represent his country as a senior. Could be forced into transitioning to become a medalist as a woman instead.

The comments on the Laurel Hubbard articles in the media, the DM in particular, are 100% outraged but it annoys me when people should say ‘the female athletes should boycott and protest!’ Why is it the women who have to suffer to protest? Why can’t the MEN show solidarity by boycotting and insisting that Hubbard should be competing in their group?
Why can’t the audience refuse to buy tickets for that event?
Why can’t the organisers step up and say that sports must be firmly segregated by sex?
Ffs. Why is it always women who have to make a stand when we’ll be the ones punished or losing out for doing so?

@Fromage

Thank you, the IOC.

Your batshit definition of 'female' and 'woman' and your wacky kerraaaayzee rules over who is allowed how much testosterone, are about to ping back onto your stupid weaselly faces. In the manner of an egg, via catapult.

Absolutely gutting for the sportswoman whose place was given to Hubbard.

Totally agree.

I want to say her name as much as possible.

It's Kuanini Manumua.

I would highly recommend listening to this interview with Canadian track and field champion, national coach and PhD in Kinesiology, Linda Blade. It gives you the batshit history of how we have got to where we are, and how easily the IOC threw away women's sport, to appease one or two transwomen. (Plus the fascinating fact that women used to have their own Olympic federation and held 4 international, women's only, Olympic Games during the 1920s/30s).

@Redcrayons

Not sure it’s time to pop the champagne just yet. Hubbard is 7th in world, so likely not to medal? Which would ‘prove’ there’s no advantage and women should just STFU.

(Facts from Wiki, I don’t follow the sport so apologies if that’s not right)

She's also 43. (Will I get banned if i say he? Because it's doesn't sit right with me to say she)

Could be forced into transitioning to become a medalist as a woman instead.

Depending on the definition of transition, this flip flop would possibly be acceptable to some athletes although others might need to be subject to some degree of coercion or inducement.

In short, we are where we are because one post op trans woman cyclist told the IOC they would need to start effectively "doping" on testosterone (as they had no testes and male bodies cannot function properly without it) in order to compete, and therefore, wanted a doping exemption. And that, plus the stupid Harper study, is why the IOC changed their rules to self ID and a reduced testosterone count.

@YouSetTheTone

The comments on the Laurel Hubbard articles in the media, the DM in particular, are 100% outraged but it annoys me when people should say ‘the female athletes should boycott and protest!’ Why is it the women who have to suffer to protest? Why can’t the MEN show solidarity by boycotting and insisting that Hubbard should be competing in their group? Why can’t the audience refuse to buy tickets for that event? Why can’t the organisers step up and say that sports must be firmly segregated by sex? Ffs. Why is it always women who have to make a stand when we’ll be the ones punished or losing out for doing so?

Agree, it's time for the men in sport to step up.

A few brave former male olympians, well past their prime for men's sport, could breeze into the women's categories and clean up. I think people need to see the consequences if this ideology is applied across the board.

They could win, stand on the podium and only as they're about to receive gold, step down and simply hand it to the woman who really won. Now THAT would be worth seeing.

That looks good Ted, I like Boyce, will each that.

I don't think we should forget that Semenya has been instrumental in getting us to where we are now, and the media are has been and will do, the bidding of the IOC as in, will report on Hubbard with language to support their narrative (including, acceptance esp since the BBC is still a Stonewall diversity champion, paid for with license fee money...)

The media coverage this week might men Hubbard is referred to as 'transwoman athlete' but is put money on words like

She
Her
Trans female
Woman
Other women

...Being used. Newsfeeds for the Olympics get put into domestic broadcasts so the reporters and producers will absolutely be made to lie to avoid complaints and legal issues.

We should watch Sky, BBC, ITV and Channel 4 like a hawk. Radio too, those brief news updates will be nice and sketchy on the details.

Agree, it's time for the men in sport to step up.

Agreed. Why should women have to fight yet another battle

Not sure it’s time to pop the champagne just yet.
Hubbard is 7th in world, so likely not to medal? Which would ‘prove’ there’s no advantage and women should just STFU.

Always counter this, please. It proves is that an old, male bodied person, well past their competing prime in the male category, can waltz into the women's category and take the place of a young, fit woman in her prime. They already won before they set foot in the Olympic village. They took the chance to compete on the international stage and the Olympic experience away from a woman. Getting on the podium is a process over years of training, competing, trying, failing and learning from experience. If women/girls are always pushed out of those chances to learn and develop by transwomen, they have no way of ever knowing what they could have done at the top level.

*Totally agree.

I want to say her name as much as possible.

It's Kuanini Manumua.*

This. She is generally called Nini. She was raised in the US and competed for them as a junior. Her parents sacrificed hugely financially to support her training. She got into weightlifting in high school. She is a committed Christian. She is 21. This would have been her first Olympics.

That is all I can find out about her online and sadly none of us will get to watch her in Tokyo.

The testosterone rules are simple women are only allowed narural female levels men aren't allowed to compete against women unless they say they are women and then reduce their testosterone a bit. Not to female levels obviously that wouldn't be fair on them (TW) but let's says 5 times maximum female levels. If however a TW can't get into this range it will be raised with immediate effect.

@nauticant

Weren't people saying here years ago that the next big leap in awareness would be sport rather than anything else, for the simple reason that men would sit up, pay attention, and then start saying "hang on, that doesn't look fair to me".

I’ve been saying this for a long time (I’m not the only one).

Big £ competitions - golf / tennis. Big tv coverage.

& also re retired elite (or maybe not) sportsmen entering women’s comps.
Unless these retirees are sitting on the commentary couches collecting their fat fees!

It sounds feeble, but we need these x players to come forward and help.

@Manderleyagain
Yes I think so - or I have seen it said that ioc decided to stick with 10, while iaaf have gone with 5 for trans women and women with semenyas condition. Most sport federations have gone with the ioc line, so athletics is different from the other sports.

women with CS condition???
I thought CS has “fathered” biological children with their wife. If this is the case how can their status / time records / medals etc… still stand?

(Plus the fascinating fact that women used to have their own Olympic federation and held 4 international, women's only, Olympic Games during the 1920s/30s). and women's football was really popular and that was stopped. It appears the misogyny has gone underground. No need to prevent women from competing, just replace them and eventually decide there's no need for women's sport because women don't play anymore.

My understanding of the Semenya case is that her DSD is a male based DSD and if she were born in the UK today would most likely be raised as a boy. If that's the case she should not be competing in the women's category.

I do think she's been treated appallingly in the handling of her whole career and athletes with DSD are a difficult case. But it's a separate question to the trans case where its someone with totally normal sexual development who is then identifying as the other sex. They shouldn't be conflated. And thinking you can reduce everything to serum testosterone is a farce. Why not let biological women dope up to the permissible limit then?

I believe 5nmol/L is the lot for male-born DSD athletes like Caster Semenya. 10nmol/L is for transwomen, meaning they are actually permitted higher levels than DSD athletes. It's worth pointing out that 10nmol/L is actually within normal male ranges not below them, so no intervention is potentially required for a male to complete as a woman.

There's a good thread here with a very enlightening graph! twitter.com/Unity_MoT/status/1407697045897592834

The reporting of Laurel has been very, very clear that Laurel hasn’t had any surgery.
Laurel will be medicated to lower current testosterone levels.
The latest US military and Joanna Harper/Loughborough study are saying speed is impacted by haemoglobin levels which do reduce (but not to female levels).
But Laurel’s sport is a strength one, and strength is barely changed.

I do feel sorry for Laurel in some ways. This is Laurel’s dad taking a standard against gay marriage

www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/mayor-stuns-gays-with-abuse-claim/5DS4QWR6IWDHLNGPWKDCWY3JAU/

@nauticant

It's like people's mental picture of a trans person being a particular teenage transgirl having a high media profile is being replaced with one of Laurel Hubbard.

When it comes to Laurel Hubbard, the meaning of "trans" starts to look very different.

You are on to something.

When I hear a word, I get an image in my head - the 'mental picture' you mention. I know some people don't, but as far as I know, most people do. So, when people hear the word 'transwoman' - what is the image in their heads?

In the early days, mine was a 'fully transitioned' male - femininely dressed and coifed in business wear, maybe a little short by male standards, quiet and demure and trying not to be noticed. No facial features because this image was not an actual person, just the generic idea from hearing/reading the word.

That's not what image I get these days. I get an image of whoever has been brought to my attention most recently. So, maybe a smirking Joss Prior or combative India Willoughby or even a patient Debbie Hayton. But the point I'm trying to make is that the word-image is no longer a generic imaginary person, but an actual person.

I would imagine that this has been the experience of many people. The generic word-image would more likely have been an old-school transexual - Im not sure many would really have heard of the "particular teenage transgirl" because however high their media profile, media is so fragmented these days it still won't have reached most. The Olympics, on the other hand - that's got real 'reach'.

So now - they've got actual people that are associated with the word, and they will become the word-image. And the one person that has been brought to their attention is - Hubbard. That is who they will see when they hear the word 'transwoman'.

So, yes. Thank you Laurel Hubbard and the IOC.

My understanding of the Semenya case is that her DSD is a male based DSD

Correct.

and if she were born in the UK today would most likely be raised as a boy.

Certainly the condition would have been identified at birth in routine testing, so there would have been no long-term misconception about them being female, despite initial appearances, and male development would have been expected.

I thought CS has “fathered” biological children with their wife.

That is pure speculation, and there's no evidence for that.

But it is true that males with Semenya's condition often can biologically father children, with medical intervention, so it's not impossible.

What is the response from those championing transwomen athletes to the fact that female to male trans athletes don't turn up in male sports at elite level. Surely this proves the physical advantages/disadvantages irrefutably? But I haven't seen it mentioned much.