Moral maze on trans athletes and sport tonight

[WobblyLondoner]

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000x4x2 - tonight and then catch up.

Programme blurb below. Not sure who the witnesses are.

Rights and Rules
Moral Maze
Combative, provocative and engaging live debate chaired by Michael Buerk. With Melanie Phillips, Ash Sarkar, Tim Stanley and Matthew Taylor. #moralmaze
Show more
The New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard looks set to make history after being confirmed as the first transgender athlete to compete at an Olympic Games. Hubbard previously competed in men’s events before transitioning in 2013. She is eligible due to a change in International Olympic Committee guidelines on testosterone levels in 2015, and after qualifying requirements were modified by the International Weightlifting Federation. For many campaigners this is a landmark moment for trans people, whose participation at grassroots level sport is shamefully low. Moreover, while there are many different male and female body types, they see elite sport as reflecting society’s obsession with gender stereotypes and worry about the implications for anyone who does not meet ‘conventional standards’ of femininity. Opponents think that allowing transgirls, who were assigned male at birth, to compete with cis girls is unfair. They argue that, in the vast majority of cases, males are stronger, faster and more powerful than females – if that were not the case we would not have had to segregate sport in the first place. The New Zealand Olympic Committee chief executive, Kereyn Smith, said this complex issue required, “a balance between human rights and fairness on the field of play”. This raises a deeper philosophical question: what is the relationship between rights and rules? And which of these is best placed to achieve fairness – not just in sporting competition but between competing demands? When should rules and laws be challenged and when does a person’s sense of their natural rights go too far?

@merrymouse

Ash Sarkar: transwomen are underrepresented in elite sport.

Laurel Hubbard is definitely not under represented in elite sport, having had many chances to compete.

Just how many pre transition elite athletes who want to continue there post transition elite athlete careers is she talking about? Does anyone know? Does she know?

I can think of one, a UK cyclist. I suppose two, if you count Hubbard, though I am not sure that Hubbard counted as an elite athlete pre transition .

@slightlysnippy

Not had time to listen to all of this, but so far very frustrating as no actual facts or data been brought into the conversation. Plenty of miss information, such as Caster Semenya is a women.

So I would like to complain to the BBC about not having women on the panel, but is Joanne Harper not a biological women? I couldn't tell by a google search.

Your google must be broken! Joanne Harper is not a biological woman.

Female sport is a protected category for good and obvious reasons. Male sport is the open category and so men should open up their category more to allow trans women (and trans men too) if Olympic standard to compete.
To me this is the only fair solution

Hi CrazyNeighbour, yes I get that now. But see my follow up post to merrymouse.

My head is fucked trying to understand gender ideology.

viques

Hubbard set New Zealand national junior records in the male category back in 1998, then transitioned in 2012.
Kate Weatherley a New Zealand downhill racer was competing in the male category before transitioning. They then went on to win two successive New Zealand national championships.
Natalie van Gogh (46) is still competing in women's cycle racing for a women's pro team in Europe. They transitioned in 2005 and have had some good results.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_van_Gogh

Tiffany Abreu (36) is an elite Brazilian volleyball player, who played in the elite male category before transitioning and then switched to the female category.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tifanny_Abreu

Hannah Mouncey competed for Australia in handball as a male prior to transitioning and then the women's national team after.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Mouncey

As usual, the great unspoken question is; what are the transmen doing? Why are they not competing against men? This needs to be asked again and again.

It should also be pointed out that not all transwomen sports people compete in the female category , transwomen fighters compete against men in Thailand and on American Samoa a transwoman is in the national football team.
As to transmen it is significant that when they.transition , they often choose to remain in the female teams
Even the newly out Japanese female international footballer has no intention of trying to join the male team.

[quote andyoldlabour]viques

Hubbard set New Zealand national junior records in the male category back in 1998, then transitioned in 2012.
Kate Weatherley a New Zealand downhill racer was competing in the male category before transitioning. They then went on to win two successive New Zealand national championships.
Natalie van Gogh (46) is still competing in women's cycle racing for a women's pro team in Europe. They transitioned in 2005 and have had some good results.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_van_Gogh

Tiffany Abreu (36) is an elite Brazilian volleyball player, who played in the elite male category before transitioning and then switched to the female category.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tifanny_Abreu[/quote]
Interesting to note that Natalie Van Gogh (like Hubbard) is still competing at an age when most male and female cyclists have hung up their water bottles. I see from their wiki page that they started to achieve major success four years after surgery. No mention of pre surgery success in major competition.

Incidentally , what is is about transwomen and cycling! Phillipa York, Veronica Ivy ( previously Rachel McKinnon), Jillian Bearden and the young cyclist Emily Bridges who despite injury demoting them from being a strong contender for a men’s competition medal in the next Olympics in Paris to a very low world ranking , is still hoping to —bump a fellow cyclist from the team— compete .

@tedlmgoingmad thank you for correcting me. I'm glad that your objection isn't trans women entering the Olympics, but the new rules.

I gather answer to my question is "zero Olympic medals."

If you are right, we should expect to see a disproprotionate number of Olympic medals in 2024 going to trans women.

Response to complaint to the BBC about lack of women guests:

"Thank you for contacting us with your concerns.

The Moral Maze has a 30-year history of lively and provocative debate, testing a broad range of perspectives. This week’s programme explored the subject of competing rights.

The first half of the programme included two trans guests with very different opinions, and two women and two men as panellists who voiced a range of views over the issue of trans participation in women’s sport.

The second half of the programme with further contributors examined wider principles concerning the limits of rights, and trans issues were not a subject of discussion. The programme included a broad range of identities and perspectives among the regular panellists and contributors.

We’ve shared the reaction we’ve received, including your own, with the programme makers and senior staff at Radio 4."

That doesn't really say anything, does it? Just says "these are the people we had on the show".

Yes, we know that... hence the complaint, you wingnut.

It’s not just medals though is it? It’s women losing out on chances to compete because they don’t have an unfair advantage.

It’s not a level playing field and amazingly it’s women, not men, that are expected to suck up the unfairness and be disadvantaged.

thank you for correcting me. I'm glad that your objection isn't trans women entering the Olympics, but the new rules.

I imagine, like most people, the poster's objection is fairness to the women in the Olympics. No one has an objection to any males entering the Olympics under the correct sex category.

[quote DadJoke]@tedlmgoingmad thank you for correcting me. I'm glad that your objection isn't trans women entering the Olympics, but the new rules.

I gather answer to my question is "zero Olympic medals."

If you are right, we should expect to see a disproprotionate number of Olympic medals in 2024 going to trans women.[/quote]
Yes the answer is zero, as it hasn’t happened yet, obviously.

And no, nobody on this thread has objected to transwomen entering the Olympics, obviously. Anyone can “enter the Olympics” in the correct category of competition, if they’re good enough to be selected.

And third, yes, if countries were to see a way to game the system by entering male competitors in women’s events, then yes you would expect to see those competitors win medals in many of the Olympic sports in the 2024 Olympics.

I've noted on the Hubbard thread that they are the perfect person to use to set the precedent, too old to win hands down so we can't use the TW will be totally dominant argument, non contact sport so no worries about any nasty injuries to explain away, an event with weight categories so not visual impact photo of a tall broad shouldered TW towering over much smaller female adversaries. Now Mini has a place so they can counter the a woman has missed out argument (of course someone else has missed out but we can't name her because it's a discretionary place). Hubbard is a Trojan horse, they will be used to counter all the arguments and set the awful precedent. I can already hear the "see those nasty women should have been kind, TW aren't a threat speech" already.

And third, yes, if countries were to see a way to game the system by entering male competitors in women’s events, then yes you would expect to see those competitors win medals in many of the Olympic sports in the 2024 Olympics.

But even if there weren't any medals, women's sport would still be irreversibly damaged, because the rules that let Hubbard qualify treat women's sport as the three legged race of the Olympics - a non- serious category created to #be kind.

If Hubbard can’t beat the women, that’s because Hubbard isn’t very good for someone with a male body.

Why should we (global ‘we’) be interested in knowing what a deliberately weakened male athlete can do? I really don’t get it.

Exactly JuneJustRains

DP who loves sport says it will be boring and it will make women’s sport boring. Who will want to watch it after the novelty wears off?

There are so many ways that this will end women’s sport from grassroots up to elite, for girls as well as women.

Women and girls are just being completely thrown under a bus. We all know that men have physical advantages, we all know that female participation in nearly all sport, at all levels, is less than males, and that it should be encouraged as there are so many benefits to it. We all know that women have only recently been 'allowed' to participate in many sports.
So why the fuck are the IOC and all the rest of the sporting bodies pandering to this shit? It's so easily proved to be detrimental to women and girls.

The repeat is on now.

[quote DadJoke]@tedlmgoingmad thank you for correcting me. I'm glad that your objection isn't trans women entering the Olympics, but the new rules.

I gather answer to my question is "zero Olympic medals."

If you are right, we should expect to see a disproprotionate number of Olympic medals in 2024 going to trans women.[/quote]
@DadJoke , I don't care if transwomen enter the Olympics, as long as they enter the correct category: the men's category. Transwomen have no place in women's sport, pre op, post op, hormone replacement, whatever. They are not women.

And I agree with PP. No amount of hormone replacement/testosterone reduction or surgery can make a male a female. All you get is a weakened male, who, depending on numerous other factors, may still have the inherent male advantages to beat a woman, or may be too old and knackered like Hubbard and not get anywhere near the medals, but will still have pushed out a woman from the experience. Medals aren't the point though, so again, please spare us your straw men arguments. The point is no male should compete in the female categories, and no female should be pushed out of sport to accommodate a male. Whether that's in a high school competition, the grassroots of all sport, or the Olympics, it's immoral, unjust and, in the case of contact sports, extremely unsafe.

@TedImgoingmad

And I agree with PP. No amount of hormone replacement/testosterone reduction or surgery can make a male a female. All you get is a weakened male, who, depending on numerous other factors, may still have the inherent male advantages to beat a woman, or may be too old and knackered like Hubbard and not get anywhere near the medals, but will still have pushed out a woman from the experience. Medals aren't the point though, so again, please spare us your straw men arguments. The point is no male should compete in the female categories, and no female should be pushed out of sport to accommodate a male. Whether that's in a high school competition, the grassroots of all sport, or the Olympics, it's immoral, unjust and, in the case of contact sports, extremely unsafe.

Ross Tucker covers this comprehensively and with studies to back it up in one of his recent Science of Sport podcasts. The sex-based performance gap is so large that, even impaired by oestrogen therapy, male athletes still have a huge performance advantage over female athletes. Oestrogen doesn’t cancel out the difference, just closes the gap a little.