Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Moral maze on trans athletes and sport tonight

176 replies

WobblyLondoner · 23/06/2021 07:34

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000x4x2 - tonight and then catch up.

Programme blurb below. Not sure who the witnesses are.

Rights and Rules
Moral Maze
Combative, provocative and engaging live debate chaired by Michael Buerk. With Melanie Phillips, Ash Sarkar, Tim Stanley and Matthew Taylor. #moralmaze
Show more
The New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard looks set to make history after being confirmed as the first transgender athlete to compete at an Olympic Games. Hubbard previously competed in men’s events before transitioning in 2013. She is eligible due to a change in International Olympic Committee guidelines on testosterone levels in 2015, and after qualifying requirements were modified by the International Weightlifting Federation. For many campaigners this is a landmark moment for trans people, whose participation at grassroots level sport is shamefully low. Moreover, while there are many different male and female body types, they see elite sport as reflecting society’s obsession with gender stereotypes and worry about the implications for anyone who does not meet ‘conventional standards’ of femininity. Opponents think that allowing transgirls, who were assigned male at birth, to compete with cis girls is unfair. They argue that, in the vast majority of cases, males are stronger, faster and more powerful than females – if that were not the case we would not have had to segregate sport in the first place. The New Zealand Olympic Committee chief executive, Kereyn Smith, said this complex issue required, “a balance between human rights and fairness on the field of play”. This raises a deeper philosophical question: what is the relationship between rights and rules? And which of these is best placed to achieve fairness – not just in sporting competition but between competing demands? When should rules and laws be challenged and when does a person’s sense of their natural rights go too far?

OP posts:
TedImgoingmad · 23/06/2021 20:38

Yes, Ash, you numpty, one sheet of paper/research to work from. And yet the IOC allowed this to happen on next to no proof!

NeedToKnow101 · 23/06/2021 20:39

I just feel like banging my head on the table.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/06/2021 20:39

Ash is such a vacuous thinker isn't she?

NeedToKnow101 · 23/06/2021 20:39

Hardly any evidence FFS

NeedToKnow101 · 23/06/2021 20:39

@MrsOvertonsWindow

Ash is such a vacuous thinker isn't she?
She really is
nauticant · 23/06/2021 20:39

Now for the wrap-up by the panel:
MP: hormones don't remove the intrinsic advantages
AS: tiny data set, can't say that transwomen will be better than women
TS: can't get anywhere while there's the TWAW/TWAM split, but there is a conflict of rights
MT: I'm a feminist, Debbie Hayton wasn't kind

Moorlander · 23/06/2021 20:40

Finding this debate very frustrating. Transwomen DO have the right to participate in sport, no one is taking that right away. They just shouldn't have the right to participate in WOMEN'S sport. And whoever it was pointing out that transwomen are actually UNDER represented in elite women's sport! Ridiculous and missing the point completely. And only Debbie mentioning biology at all as far as I heard? And no female witnesses? Disappointed.

BettyFilous · 23/06/2021 20:42

“Decibel auction of rights and wants” Nice one Melanie!

sashagabadon · 23/06/2021 20:43

No one making the obvious point that in sport rights are not a pie. There is only one gold medal at the Olympics and only one person that can win it on the day.
It’s a very frustrating discussion.

Cailleach1 · 23/06/2021 20:44

Where are the female athletes? Retired ones can speak without losing sponsorship and places. Sharon Davies, Tessa Sanderson etc.

NeedToKnow101 · 23/06/2021 20:44

And women's rights!

merrymouse · 23/06/2021 20:44

AS: tiny data set, can't say that transwomen will be better than women

At an elite level this demonstrates a misunderstanding of the evidence and it’s embarrassing for the BBC that they would let her make this argument.

DaisiesandButtercups · 23/06/2021 20:44

Ach! Moral Maze is always frustrating.

At least tonight I am pleased to hear Melanie Phillips and one of the men, I don’t know the names of the men on the panel.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/06/2021 20:45

So many words yet so little clarity...

TedImgoingmad · 23/06/2021 20:45

@Cailleach1

Where are the female athletes? Retired ones can speak without losing sponsorship and places. Sharon Davies, Tessa Sanderson etc.
Clearly not deemed worthy of this lofty discussion. Can't have mere women talking about their own experiences, can we?
nauticant · 23/06/2021 20:46

To those who listened and now want to smash things, bear in mind that that was a better than average The Moral Maze!

TedImgoingmad · 23/06/2021 20:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/06/2021 20:48

Thanks nauticant Am so tempted to have Wine in response

Signalbox · 23/06/2021 20:48

@sashagabadon

No one making the obvious point that in sport rights are not a pie. There is only one gold medal at the Olympics and only one person that can win it on the day. It’s a very frustrating discussion.
Yes the whole rights is not a competition thing is mad in view of the fact that the Olympics is a literal competition and a Tongan woman has lost out because a transwoman has taken her place.
Cailleach1 · 23/06/2021 20:48

Sharon can tell from experience how she was cheated before. And they didn't even have male bodies. Now put a level of around 1500% increase in testosterone and a different type of body, a male body as being fair competition in the women's events.

Who are the IOC Committee who sold out women? Were they given something for their troubles like Fifa, allegedly or do they just like fucking women around at the behest of men's wishes.

TedImgoingmad · 23/06/2021 20:51

The IOC is as corrupt as hell, it's been well documented.

confusednotcom · 23/06/2021 20:55

Most people react with absolute shock if they are in the dark that this is even being proposed let alone going to happen. Of course it's wrong. TW don't give a flying f though. Appalling.

Campervan69 · 23/06/2021 20:55

Made the right decision to swerve this by the sound of it. A blokes together wankfest is not my idea of a good listen.

WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld · 23/06/2021 20:57

I always end up disappointed the the MM

saleorbouy · 23/06/2021 21:07

Better to have total equality and abandon all segregation of gender in sport. If this is deemed as unfair then I think the question has answered itself and it makes no sense to allow trans gender sportspersons to compete in natural female sports.