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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Moral maze on trans athletes and sport tonight

176 replies

WobblyLondoner · 23/06/2021 07:34

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000x4x2 - tonight and then catch up.

Programme blurb below. Not sure who the witnesses are.

Rights and Rules
Moral Maze
Combative, provocative and engaging live debate chaired by Michael Buerk. With Melanie Phillips, Ash Sarkar, Tim Stanley and Matthew Taylor. #moralmaze
Show more
The New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard looks set to make history after being confirmed as the first transgender athlete to compete at an Olympic Games. Hubbard previously competed in men’s events before transitioning in 2013. She is eligible due to a change in International Olympic Committee guidelines on testosterone levels in 2015, and after qualifying requirements were modified by the International Weightlifting Federation. For many campaigners this is a landmark moment for trans people, whose participation at grassroots level sport is shamefully low. Moreover, while there are many different male and female body types, they see elite sport as reflecting society’s obsession with gender stereotypes and worry about the implications for anyone who does not meet ‘conventional standards’ of femininity. Opponents think that allowing transgirls, who were assigned male at birth, to compete with cis girls is unfair. They argue that, in the vast majority of cases, males are stronger, faster and more powerful than females – if that were not the case we would not have had to segregate sport in the first place. The New Zealand Olympic Committee chief executive, Kereyn Smith, said this complex issue required, “a balance between human rights and fairness on the field of play”. This raises a deeper philosophical question: what is the relationship between rights and rules? And which of these is best placed to achieve fairness – not just in sporting competition but between competing demands? When should rules and laws be challenged and when does a person’s sense of their natural rights go too far?

OP posts:
NecessaryScene · 23/06/2021 12:55

There are 4 on the panel - 2 male, 2 female.

The 4 witnesses are all male.

StroppyTop · 23/06/2021 12:58
Thank you - done. This is really boiling my piss.
C8H10N4O2 · 23/06/2021 13:42

Ash Sarker is one of the current generation's Julie Burchills or Richard Littlejohns - first and foremost a relentless self publicist. I look forward to her views mutating with the cash or explaining why her actions are entirely consistent with the greater good, just like her predecessors' have done.

The last article I saw from Melanie Phillips was about the poor menz being falsely accused of rape. So that was nice.

GCmiddle · 23/06/2021 14:01

Melanie Phillips has definitely not drunk the Koop-aid when it comes to gender ideology though....

GCmiddle · 23/06/2021 14:02

Kool-aid, sorry.

NecessaryScene · 23/06/2021 14:12

Matthew Taylor on the panel seems to have edited Sally Hines' recent book, so he produces the Kool-aid.

C8H10N4O2 · 23/06/2021 14:25

Melanie Phillips has definitely not drunk the Koop-aid when it comes to gender ideology though....

Oh I agree, however its not coming from an interest in women's rights and protections. In the normal run of things I don't think that matters - the purity spiral drives me nuts. However as she is presumably there as the all purpose GC voice on the panel I'd have preferred they have someone whose interest is coming from a position of women's equality rather than reaction. However beggars can't be choosers I guess.

AmericanSlang · 23/06/2021 14:25

Ash Sarkar has already stated that Hubbard won their place "fair and square" and basically said "never mind luv, better luck next time eh?" to the young female athlete who has lost her place to Hubbard. So I don't think we need to tune in to find out her views

Poledra · 23/06/2021 14:26

Have also complained. Thanks @Scarify

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 23/06/2021 14:27

"Trans girls who were assigned Male at birth"

Fucking laughable.

littlbrowndog · 23/06/2021 14:28

Talking about women’s sport

All the witnesses men 🤦‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 23/06/2021 14:34

I've submitted a comment for urgent review. If no response, I will complain.

Moral maze on trans athletes and sport tonight
ferretface · 23/06/2021 14:35

The problem exists in both elite and grassroots sport, in some of the discussion about this topic there's a suggestion that unfairness in grassroots sport doesn't really matter because it's "just for fun". Absolutely not!! I run as a hobby, I train for hours and hours a week and occasionally place in races, if I get beaten I want it to be by another woman who is more dedicated or more genetically talented than me, not by a mediocre man!

Dyrne · 23/06/2021 14:39

Moreover, while there are many different male and female body types, they see elite sport as reflecting society’s obsession with gender stereotypes and worry about the implications for anyone who does not meet ‘conventional standards’ of femininity.

Anyone else see the irony of this statement when in actual fact it is young girls who are being shuttled down the path to transition the moment they start being gender non-conforming because they must identify as male then.

Star555 · 23/06/2021 14:47

I just complained to BBC:
www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint/#/Complaint

Let's make our voices heard, in the name of science and equality! Next they'll bring on climate change sceptics from the American South for panels about global warming at this rate.

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 23/06/2021 14:48

I'd suggest Joe Rogan for some interesting listening on trans athletes.

oldwomanwhoruns · 23/06/2021 19:11

Me too, @ferretface (ie grassroots sport level). But it matters to me. If I ever see a man being given a prize in my age category, I will not go quietly. I will be the one yelling the roof down.
Even the least fit, most unathletic man, in my age category, would finish before me.

nauticant · 23/06/2021 20:02

Right, I'm ready to hear what they make of this. If the panel doesn't miss the point in as many aspects as you can imagine I'll be very surprised.

nauticant · 23/06/2021 20:04

"hormone therapy but not corrective surgery", "femininity". Well, at least Michael Buerk has a sense of what this is about.

nauticant · 23/06/2021 20:05

Ash Sarkar is going for a Platonic Ideal of Ash Sarkar for tonight's programme.

nauticant · 23/06/2021 20:09

Joanna Harper equates the conflict to sport having lesbians and straight women competing. I don't have the words.

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 23/06/2021 20:13

@nauticant

Joanna Harper equates the conflict to sport having lesbians and straight women competing. I don't have the words.
Fucking priceless
DaisiesandButtercups · 23/06/2021 20:14

OMG Shock I heard that about lesbians, seriously just no words Confused

thirstyformore · 23/06/2021 20:14

@nauticant that was ridiculous!!

DaisiesandButtercups · 23/06/2021 20:15

I mean literally on another planet or something.

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