Moral maze on trans athletes and sport tonight

[WobblyLondoner]

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000x4x2 - tonight and then catch up.

Programme blurb below. Not sure who the witnesses are.

Rights and Rules
Moral Maze
Combative, provocative and engaging live debate chaired by Michael Buerk. With Melanie Phillips, Ash Sarkar, Tim Stanley and Matthew Taylor. #moralmaze
Show more
The New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard looks set to make history after being confirmed as the first transgender athlete to compete at an Olympic Games. Hubbard previously competed in men’s events before transitioning in 2013. She is eligible due to a change in International Olympic Committee guidelines on testosterone levels in 2015, and after qualifying requirements were modified by the International Weightlifting Federation. For many campaigners this is a landmark moment for trans people, whose participation at grassroots level sport is shamefully low. Moreover, while there are many different male and female body types, they see elite sport as reflecting society’s obsession with gender stereotypes and worry about the implications for anyone who does not meet ‘conventional standards’ of femininity. Opponents think that allowing transgirls, who were assigned male at birth, to compete with cis girls is unfair. They argue that, in the vast majority of cases, males are stronger, faster and more powerful than females – if that were not the case we would not have had to segregate sport in the first place. The New Zealand Olympic Committee chief executive, Kereyn Smith, said this complex issue required, “a balance between human rights and fairness on the field of play”. This raises a deeper philosophical question: what is the relationship between rights and rules? And which of these is best placed to achieve fairness – not just in sporting competition but between competing demands? When should rules and laws be challenged and when does a person’s sense of their natural rights go too far?

I’m considering ditching Loki to go and listen to R4 in another room. This sounds like a doozy of a discussion.

Matthew Taylor: if people can assume British nationality then what's the problem with transwomen?

Ash Sarkar: transwomen are underrepresented in elite sport.

Ash Sarkar: losing to a transwoman shouldn't be any different to losing to a tall woman.

Debbie Hayton is slaying this.

Debbie Hayton isn't an ideal choice. But Hayton does argue well.

Oh, no, it's Adam "there is no conflict, only human rights and equality" Wagner.

I remembered I had my airpods in my pocket. Ash Sarkar’s already making my blood pressure rise. She’s so annoying. I might not go the distance with this. The fuckwittedness of Sarkar’s questions… I have no words.

I'm not listening- is there anyone there on womens side?

Debbie Hayton was excellent - and she challenged the panel for not having any women as experts citing Nic Williams and Emma Hilton.

Melanie is doing well too I think. Asking pertinent questions. Making valid points.

Debbie Hayton told them off for not having a female witness. I cheered. Beurk flailed his way through replying to that one, saying there were "2 formidable women" on the panel. Wish Hayton has pointed out that being on the panel and being a witness are 2 totally different things.

Ash Sarkar: transwomen are underrepresented in elite sport.

Laurel Hubbard is definitely not under represented in elite sport, having had many chances to compete.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

I'm not listening- is there anyone there on womens side?

So far, Debbie Hayton as a witness, and Melanie Philips as a panelist.

@nauticant

Joanna Harper equates the conflict to sport having lesbians and straight women competing. I don't have the words.

I think that says a lot more about Joanna Harker than anything else TBH.

Adam Wagner: looking at it as a conflict of rights is unhelpful.

Wagner seems to have derailed into a totally different subject

@merrymouse

Ash Sarkar: transwomen are underrepresented in elite sport.

Laurel Hubbard is definitely not under represented in elite sport, having had many chances to compete.

I really wish Debbie Hayton had challenged the 1% population of transpeople. That's not true, I don't think.

Also, I wish Melanie, when questioning Joanna Harper, had challenged the assertion that Hubbard is a woman. She checked herself, and was uncharacteristically polite about that one.

Ash Sarkar in beyond satire shocker: expanding rights helped those in slavery.

This is going off on a ridiculous tangent. Ash Sarkar is talking about slavery now. Nice bit of smokescreen

It’s very 6th form debate. And not really about sport at all. Maybe this programme is always theoretical/ philosophical?
They need some sports scientists on there.

Did they ask Emma Hilton or Ross Tucker to participate?

Adam Wagner always gives the impression that he doesn’t really know what he is talking about when he discusses this issue - as though he has been dragged into discussing something that is rather distasteful and beneath him.

All these blokes wagging their academic willies at each other. WHAT ABOUT WOMEN IN SPORT???

I imagine Melanie is forbidden from challenging JH on what Hubbard is, I think the discerning listener will read meaning into Melanie’s hesitation and recovery and come to a conclusion.

I think they are trying to keep away from the question of fairness in sport as really there is no answer to that.

Back on track now

Thank you, Melanie! Yes, Harper makes absolutely no sense.