Moral maze on trans athletes and sport tonight

[WobblyLondoner]

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000x4x2 - tonight and then catch up.

Programme blurb below. Not sure who the witnesses are.

Rights and Rules
Moral Maze
Combative, provocative and engaging live debate chaired by Michael Buerk. With Melanie Phillips, Ash Sarkar, Tim Stanley and Matthew Taylor. #moralmaze
Show more
The New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard looks set to make history after being confirmed as the first transgender athlete to compete at an Olympic Games. Hubbard previously competed in men’s events before transitioning in 2013. She is eligible due to a change in International Olympic Committee guidelines on testosterone levels in 2015, and after qualifying requirements were modified by the International Weightlifting Federation. For many campaigners this is a landmark moment for trans people, whose participation at grassroots level sport is shamefully low. Moreover, while there are many different male and female body types, they see elite sport as reflecting society’s obsession with gender stereotypes and worry about the implications for anyone who does not meet ‘conventional standards’ of femininity. Opponents think that allowing transgirls, who were assigned male at birth, to compete with cis girls is unfair. They argue that, in the vast majority of cases, males are stronger, faster and more powerful than females – if that were not the case we would not have had to segregate sport in the first place. The New Zealand Olympic Committee chief executive, Kereyn Smith, said this complex issue required, “a balance between human rights and fairness on the field of play”. This raises a deeper philosophical question: what is the relationship between rights and rules? And which of these is best placed to achieve fairness – not just in sporting competition but between competing demands? When should rules and laws be challenged and when does a person’s sense of their natural rights go too far?

I think I will self declare myself to be a man then go into a men's bog and if challenged say I like looking at willies

Moreover, while there are many different male and female body types, they see elite sport as reflecting society’s obsession with gender stereotypes and worry about the implications for anyone who does not meet ‘conventional standards’ of femininity.

This argument is ridiculous. There was no Olympic women's weight lifting at all until 2000. Just by taking part the female competitors aren't conforming to gender stereotypes.

Why do the BBC like Ash Sarkar so much? What has she actually done apart from appear on shows when they want the handmaid view?

@sashagabadon

I think they are trying to keep away from the question of fairness in sport as really there is no answer to that.

Yep! They avoided that like the plague. They avoided mentioning women's rights too. What a load of wank people talk.

One argument made was that if TW were going to dominate women's sports then we might expect to see 40-50 TW across the female categories and since there is "only one" this is not the case.

But what I want to know is are TW athletes under an obligation to declare themselves publicy as TW or can they keep their trans status private? Could there potentially be trans women competing this year who are keeping their status private?

Also the low number of TW competing could simply be that many trans women have a level of integrity that would stop them from even attempting to compete in the women's competition.

@2Rebecca

Why do the BBC like Ash Sarkar so much? What has she actually done apart from appear on shows when they want the handmaid view?

Why did they like Nigel Farage so much?

This article is from 2010 and is about Claire Fox, not Ash Sarkar, but I think it's still relevant.

standpointmag.co.uk/television-wireless-july-10-long-march-to-microphone-nick-cohen-radio-4-moral-maze/

What did I get deleted for ?

Honesty, possibly?

But what I want to know is are TW athletes under an obligation to declare themselves publicy as TW or can they keep their trans status private? Could there potentially be trans women competing this year who are keeping their status private?

Unlikely, since we can spot a person's sex a mile off.

Anyway, Hubbard isn't the first transwoman to compete in the Olympics. Caitlyn Jenner competed, and was so phenomenally unimpeded by her ladybrain that she won gold in the Men's event.

There was also a canoeist called Sandra Forgues who also competed in the Olympics and won gold.

@Signalbox

One argument made was that if TW were going to dominate women's sports then we might expect to see 40-50 TW across the female categories and since there is "only one" this is not the case.

But what I want to know is are TW athletes under an obligation to declare themselves publicy as TW or can they keep their trans status private? Could there potentially be trans women competing this year who are keeping their status private?

Also the low number of TW competing could simply be that many trans women have a level of integrity that would stop them from even attempting to compete in the women's competition.

The rules for TW to compete in the Olympics were changed only recently. Previously they needed to have had sex reassignment surgery and there are very few who have had that. This is the first Olympics where that wasn't a requirement.

@2Rebecca

Why do the BBC like Ash Sarkar so much? What has she actually done apart from appear on shows when they want the handmaid view?

Isn't Sarkar the "Champagne socialist, luxury communist who fucks like a champion"?

Unlikely, since we can spot a person's sex a mile off.

Yes but it still might not become evident until the Olympics takes place. I keep seeing people argue that if there was an advantage there would be more TW in the Olympics. But potentially there will be more that we just don't know about because they are not obliged to announce themselves to the world in advance (or at all). I just wonder if we are all going to be gaslit into thinking that LH is the only one whereas in reality there will be many more.

Yes. The falling out with Julie Burchill is the other reason I know her name. Is she the communist equivalent of an IT girl? Famous for just hanging about with the right people in a not very communist sort of way

Anyway, Hubbard isn't the first transwoman to compete in the Olympics. Caitlyn Jenner competed, and was so phenomenally unimpeded by her ladybrain that she won gold in the Men's event.

There was also a canoeist called Sandra Forgues who also competed in the Olympics and won gold.

Good point.

There have also been other males who have competed in women's events in the Olympics and won Olympic medals.

But, yeah. No advantage.

"Yes but it still might not become evident until the Olympics takes place."

Difficult to hide the higher levels of testosterone in qualifying events. You would also have go be an obscure athlete who had no previous records in youth events.

Matthew Taylor: if people can assume British nationality then what's the problem with transwomen?

Nobody assumes British citizenship. I've just been through the whole process. I had to meet stringent conditions to be allowed to apply. I had to apply for indefinite leave to remain first, then provide lots of documentary evidence proving my status for the last five years, including my tax status, pass a language test, a British knowledge test, pay over 2K (and that was without a lawyer), provide my biometrics and references. All in it took over two years and lots of stress and worry.

But yeah, I just assumed British citizenship.

And I'd love to know what an application for citizenship - despite the stress of applying and then the security it provides, no more than a social construct after all - has to do with biology and fairness in sports competitions.

I’ve been thinking about this since earlier. Sarkar trotted out the line about Hubbard’s inclusion being permitted within the IOC rules, so justified. The programme is The Moral Maze, not The Sicking to the Rules Maze. The rules are wrong, immoral IMO.

Yes, it's interesting that "literal communist" Sarkar should feel so beholden to the rules of a corrupt, corporate driven fiefdom like the IOC.

www.businessinsider.com/olympics-inc-inside-the-business-of-the-ioc?op=1&r=US&IR=T#want-to-join-the-ioc-and-get-free-tickets-to-all-the-events-sorry-youre-just-not-membership-material-3

(A 2010 article, but doubt much has changed)

@CharleyParley, it's very hard to decide whether that citizenship analogy, or Harper's comments about excluding lesbians from women's sport, was the most egregiously stupid argument made in that programme.

The ‘different body types’ argument is so full of holes.

Usain Bolt won Olympic gold in 2016 with a time of 9.81 seconds - he’s on Wikipedia as being 6ft 5 /1.95cm and 207Ib / 94kg (14.8 Stone)

Andre de Grasse took bronze with a time of 9.91 seconds. He’s 5ft 10 / 178cm and 155lb / 70kg (11 stone)

Trayvon Bromell came 8th in that final. He’s 5ft 8 / 173cm and 156lb / 71kg (11.1 stone).

Obviously weight can change but essentially between 8 males in one race we have a 24kg weight variation and 22 cm height variation.

Is she the communist equivalent of an IT girl?

I didn't watch it. I take it that Ash Sarker wandered off to talk about slavery. Also, that Hubbard competing against women is fine as it is within the rules. Would she think slavery would be fine if someone made rules providing for it?

Sometimes rules are just wrong and damaging to people. Sometimes rules disadvantage some people and remove their rights to the benefit of others. That is not a good thing, Ash.