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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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So, what is 'non gc' feminism?

419 replies

ArabellaScott · 22/06/2021 13:04

Hello, all.

What does feminism that isn't about sex/gender look like?

What subjects does it investigate?

What aims does it have?

Would be good to hear from those who didn't feel able to post before.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 23/06/2021 14:17

I did wonder, that, AllThe. It's an obstacle course getting to see a doctor round here, barely possible at the best of times. Can't see them agreeing to 'getting to know you' sessions.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 23/06/2021 14:18

Where does it stop?

It stops when women just stop complaining and let others decide what's best, I believe.

OP posts:
AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 23/06/2021 14:19

@ArabellaScott

I did wonder, that, AllThe. It's an obstacle course getting to see a doctor round here, barely possible at the best of times. Can't see them agreeing to 'getting to know you' sessions.
It’s also putting the emphasis on the Pp to simply get over her trauma, redefine her boundaries and accept males into her personal space. It’s disgusting.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/06/2021 14:19

You should start by looking up Marion Millar, Kate Scottow, Kellie Jay Keen Minshull, Harry Miller and Miranda Yardley, all of whom have either been prosecuted or interviewed for "hate crime" or "hate incidents"

ArabellaScott · 23/06/2021 14:24

Er, sorry for all the acronyms above.

TWAW= Transwomen are Women

FOIs = Freedom of Information

E&W. = England and Wales

OP posts:
GoingGently · 23/06/2021 14:48

@Holly60 what is your definition of female if not biology?

FOJN · 23/06/2021 14:48

please google what a 'hate crime' actually is before throwing that term around.

This how I know that so many people with strong opinions on this subject have not actually been following what has happened over the last couple of years.

Non crime hate incidents have been reported, the police may contact you to check your thinking, you will not get a day in court to clear your name but the accusation may show on a DBS check even though there has been no crime and you have not been convicted. Until it was challenged in a judicial review the police were under no obligation to notify you of the complaint so you might first find out about it when applying for jobs and it showed on a DBS check.

What you think you know about the law and what is actually happening are often different things these days.

mollythemeerkat · 23/06/2021 14:58

@EsmaCannonball

Can you imagine how disempowered trades unions would be if they had to include the owners and they had to include the shareholders? You can't politically organise if you have to include those who are organising against you.
Spot on Esme.
mollythemeerkat · 23/06/2021 15:00

Sorry, meant "Esma" - brain not 100 percent today!

GoingGently · 23/06/2021 15:11

Or from another angle... who is NOT a woman, and why?

What would I have to do/stop doing to be considered no longer a woman? Where does one tip into the other?

Despite the many posts on this thread asking the question, there's still been no answer to what makes a woman... I'm still puzzled

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/06/2021 15:21

Despite the many posts on this thread asking the question, there's still been no answer to what makes a woman... I'm still puzzled

No one ever answers, because the truth is that it is a quasi religious belief, rather than something logical and factual they can articulate.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/06/2021 15:22

What they are saying basically boils down to "anyone who says they are a woman is a woman, no exceptions".

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/06/2021 15:24

When you ask awkward questions about what constitutes a woman without referring to stereotypes that's when you get blocked on Twitter or people suddenly remember that they have something urgent they need to do.

GoingGently · 23/06/2021 15:24

Because they are spouting what they've been told to spout and haven't actually thought it through ...

In other news, I see from another thread that a school's diversity scheme has declared Joan of Arc as trans so that's one parameter identified then.

Short hair & fighting for causes = man. Glad we cleared that one up

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/06/2021 15:25

It's so sexist, always.

GoingGently · 23/06/2021 15:27

There is no way of explaining TWAW that doesn't reinforce gender stereotypes is there?

StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 23/06/2021 15:33

In other news, I see from another thread that a school's diversity scheme has declared Joan of Arc as trans so that's one parameter identified then.

Wtf? Really?!

Honestly- whenever I think about all of this stuff I always come back to being reminded of flat earthers and 5G vaccines.

When did science become so unpalatable to some?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/06/2021 15:36

There is no way of explaining TWAW that doesn't reinforce gender stereotypes is there?

There is, but it needs a pseudoscientific belief that gendered brains can occur in the wrong sexed body.

GoingGently · 23/06/2021 15:47

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There is no way of explaining TWAW that doesn't reinforce gender stereotypes is there?

There is, but it needs a pseudoscientific belief that gendered brains can occur in the wrong sexed body.

Don't gender stereotypes also underpin a belief in 'gendered brains'.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/06/2021 15:50

Yes but I can sort of see how people think it's separate to stereotypes. You get trans advocates saying that some MTF trans people are "tomboys", implying that they "just knew" they were girls/women even though they weren't attracted to feminine coded stuff.

MarshmallowSwede · 23/06/2021 17:50

Do white women birth and raise white sons? Have white women benefitted from the very patriarchy we live in and white supremacy? Yes and yes. Look at how women In western and Northern Europe live compared to women in Africa and the Middle East. Or look at how Native American women and First Nation women in Canada have to deal with. Or black American women in America as well. There are so many systems set up by white men, that oppress All women, but disproportionately affect women of colour much much worse. And we can’t just blame the white men.. so we don’t bare any responsibility from benefiting from white supremacy? Is that it?

All you have to do is ask any woman of colour how white women currently are using the “white men are bad” excuse to get off of the hook for the very same patriarchy that has victimised and exploited women of colour.

If you really can’t see how problematic it is blaming white men as bad while at the same time raising and birthing them and expecting to get off of the hook for the part you play, then you need to go speak to women of colour.

And it’s the typical response of white women who when called out on this to say it’s victim blaming. I’ve had many women of colour bring this topic to my attention and I thought since we were going to have discussions I would be one to bring up.

For example. Trans women who are white telling women of colour they are more oppressed and that women of colour are wrong for focusing on their issues which are women’s issues, and if if trans women are not centered in their feminism then they are wrong. Or calling them “white feminists”. Which we all know means to have a self centered, navel hazy, whites only focus on women’s issues. This idea of inclusiveness is pushing women of colour to the side for white trans women to benefit. Meanwhile the sisterhood of feminism is totally abandoning women of colour for white trans women to feel good about themselves.

And I say white trans women are leading the movement because if you follow the money trail, it is white trans women funding the movements in the US, which seems to direct the movement globally.

So feminists supporting this trans movement are basically supporting white supremacy. That whole “trans women of colour”’thing is a smoke screen. How? When biological
Women of colour barely have their concerns heard in feminism as it is. Black women are constantly binned in with trans women for inclusion? Hello.. black women are women. Not men. That plays into the stereotypes
Of black women that hurts them.

Pray tell me, how a white Western European man (no matter how he identifies) is more oppressed than a black American woman? If a white Swedish trans woman had the audacity to say this to me I think I would vomit.

So this is what I mean. Who has given white men this level of entitlement from birth? You think they just raised themselves? They just decided at the age of five to be entitled on their own? Our whole society, which we participate in enforces their entitlement. So yes white women are half of the blame.

White men are bad, white men are entitled, white men oppress. That’s throwing rocks and hiding your hand. I mean black women and other women of colour keep saying this. Are we listening at all?
No because as soon as they say it we get offended and say it’s victim blaming. Yet want them to support feminism but won’t even know examine our own role in white supremacy and supporting the very patriarchy we claim to want to do away with.

Your response was a perfect example of white feminism btw. Nothing about my statement is anti woman. You or anyone is free to refuse to examine why you as a white woman don’t see how you helped create the very monster you rail against. Aka white men.

I suggest you have a discussion with a black British woman or black American woman or other woman of colour for greater insight as they can give you better input. And perhaps some advice as to how we can do better.

Feminism for biological women is barely inclusive, yet here we are having trans women pushing women aside.

And who is getting the short end of the stick? Way more than any white woman. Women of colour.. we are all getting a bad deal. But the added little insidious, evil of white supremacy in the pro trans movement is definitely affecting women of colour way more than us.

So I want to again ask.. how is a white trans woman from Western Europe or Scandinavia for example more oppressed, or have it worse than a biological woman of colour?

There is no way any white man in Sweden or anyone in Scandinavia in general more oppressed than any person of colour. I can say this with confidence no matter their sexuality or how they identify.

MarshmallowSwede · 23/06/2021 17:56

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TheWordWomanIsTaken · 23/06/2021 17:56

@KimikosNightmare

I assumed this was to give those of you who want to talk endlessly about trans issues a space to do so.

It can't be called "trans issues"- hence "sex and gender" but it's really just trans issues.

It will also allow those of you who want to talk endlessly about trans issues to carry on with the pretence that only you are "real feminists" who care about women and that anyone who doesn't want to talk endlessly about trans issues isn't interested in things like abortion rights or the normalisation of "sex work"

do you mean women's rights issues? I'm sure you do
Imasoulman · 23/06/2021 18:10

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Cailleach1 · 23/06/2021 18:31

well, yes. I am in jeans and hoodie. Our sex is defined by our biology, not our clothes or make up.

I would still be a woman in a Spiderman costume.

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