So, what is 'non gc' feminism?

[ArabellaScott]

Hello, all.

What does feminism that isn't about sex/gender look like?

What subjects does it investigate?

What aims does it have?

Would be good to hear from those who didn't feel able to post before.

So, are we just completely abandoned now, if we're considered to have the wrong sort of views, MN? I'm feeling quite sick, actually. Posters are free to make quite vicious personal attacks, use slurs like the one above, make nonsensical accusations of motives, whatever, and presumably that's fine?

I was unhappy about the split boards.

I started a thread to try and make the most of what I think is a badly thought through situation. Hoping to hear from people who have been apparently unhappy to post. I posted in good faith and I don't see that anything I've said could possibly be construed as rude or out of line.

You can see clearly how that has been responded to.

I'm getting the message that certain posters are not welcome and can't expect support from MN.

@JustLost101

Clearly the TERFs are just going to spam both boards with their One True View and Only Acceptable Form of Feminism

1) TERF is an offensive and misogynistic slur. 2) the only stipulation for GC feminism is that it centres females

@JustLost101

Clearly the TERFs are just going to spam both boards with their One True View and Only Acceptable Form of Feminism

Were you always this unpleasant?

So much for sisterhood.

Hang on - this situation could arise regardless of GC feminism - the existence of GC feminism does not preclude this situation from occurring as men can be nurses too.

The fact that men can be nurses too isn't any kind of proof that TWAW.

For example. I had a boil right on the edge of my vulva a couple of years ago. I knew it needed looking at so made a DR's appointment. When I told the receptionist what it was for she said "ah. OK. That appointment is with a male Dr. Would you prefer to see a woman? Although you'll have to wait an extra few days. One of the receptionists can come in with you if not, or you can bring someone with you if it makes you feel more comfortable."

Now if we went down the road of TWAW, and said anyone who felt like a woman was a woman, then had my Dr been a transwoman they wouldn't have given me that 'warning. ' I would have attended my appointment and then been faced with someone who I see as male. As a woman I've been conditioned to "be kind" so quite possibly would then allow them to conduct the fairly intimate exam out of embarrassment.

I'm also a survivor of long term CSA, and suffer cPTSD as a result. The consequences of that could be potentially catastrophic.

@ArabellaScott

So, are we just completely abandoned now, if we're considered to have the wrong sort of views, MN? I'm feeling quite sick, actually. Posters are free to make quite vicious personal attacks, use slurs like the one above, make nonsensical accusations of motives, whatever, and presumably that's fine?

I was unhappy about the split boards.

I started a thread to try and make the most of what I think is a badly thought through situation. Hoping to hear from people who have been apparently unhappy to post. I posted in good faith and I don't see that anything I've said could possibly be construed as rude or out of line.

You can see clearly how that has been responded to.

I'm getting the message that certain posters are not welcome and can't expect support from MN.

I think it can be reported as usual but it is unsettling to see that kind of hatred aimed at women on this board

Not sure if that poster thinks they are a feminist

@CiaoForNiao

Hang on - this situation could arise regardless of GC feminism - the existence of GC feminism does not preclude this situation from occurring as men can be nurses too.

The fact that men can be nurses too isn't any kind of proof that TWAW.

For example. I had a boil right on the edge of my vulva a couple of years ago. I knew it needed looking at so made a DR's appointment. When I told the receptionist what it was for she said "ah. OK. That appointment is with a male Dr. Would you prefer to see a woman? Although you'll have to wait an extra few days. One of the receptionists can come in with you if not, or you can bring someone with you if it makes you feel more comfortable."

Now if we went down the road of TWAW, and said anyone who felt like a woman was a woman, then had my Dr been a transwoman they wouldn't have given me that 'warning. ' I would have attended my appointment and then been faced with someone who I see as male. As a woman I've been conditioned to "be kind" so quite possibly would then allow them to conduct the fairly intimate exam out of embarrassment.

I'm also a survivor of long term CSA, and suffer cPTSD as a result. The consequences of that could be potentially catastrophic.

And by refusing a trans woman treating you on the basis of them being male, are you committing a hate crime?

Can Feminism fight for trans women? Absolutely. In the areas trans women's needs are aligned with female people, such as challenging gender stereotypes or male violence, Feminism's work to dismantle historic sexism will benefit trans people as well.
Yes - your whole post is great but this in particular. Women aligning with transwomen to work towards certain shared goals - for a long time that's what a lot of us thought was going on. And if alignment hadn't been changed to mean 'inclusion' things might have been different.

@JustLost101 firstly stop using offensive terms. Secondly this thread is now in the "sex and gender debate" topic which is where this debate is supposed to be. If you look at the threads in Feminist Chat you will see they are free of any mention of "gender critical" ideas, or if there are any mentions then threads are being moved quick-sharp into the Sex and Gender debate topic. Even threads from other sections like AIBU have been moved here today.

TBH, you just seem to be spoiling for a fight and wanting posters you don't agree with to shut up altogether.

And by refusing a trans woman treating you on the basis of them being male, are you committing a hate crime?

Probably. But if being a "T*" who is guilty of a hate crime is what I have to do to prevent myself going back to the dark days when I was planning my suicide then that's what I'll do.

One True View? Nah mate, I’m all about the pragmatism. For me the important questions about any political movement are what and why. The how and who is then obvious.

Oh yeah, and logical consistency. Lack of logical consistency is a deal breaker for me, because it means supporters have to outsource their own analysis and responsibility for decisions to someone who understands The Rules.

Probably. But if being a "T*" who is guilty of a hate crime is what I have to do to prevent myself going back to the dark days when I was planning my suicide then that's what I'll do.

@CiaoForNiao

And by refusing a trans woman treating you on the basis of them being male, are you committing a hate crime?

Probably. But if being a "T*" who is guilty of a hate crime is what I have to do to prevent myself going back to the dark days when I was planning my suicide then that's what I'll do.

It’s a scandal that this is the decision you’re faced with.

Ciao I hope it never comes to that. Sending you warm wishes.

Thanks everyone. If it ever comes to it, having to accept TWAW in any and all situations I will probably stop attending medical appointments.

🙄 please google what a 'hate crime' actually is before throwing that term around.

I will fight to make sure women have access to the health care they need, Ciao, and understanding and sensitivity has to be part of that.

@CiaoForNiao

Hang on - this situation could arise regardless of GC feminism - the existence of GC feminism does not preclude this situation from occurring as men can be nurses too.

The fact that men can be nurses too isn't any kind of proof that TWAW.

For example. I had a boil right on the edge of my vulva a couple of years ago. I knew it needed looking at so made a DR's appointment. When I told the receptionist what it was for she said "ah. OK. That appointment is with a male Dr. Would you prefer to see a woman? Although you'll have to wait an extra few days. One of the receptionists can come in with you if not, or you can bring someone with you if it makes you feel more comfortable."

Now if we went down the road of TWAW, and said anyone who felt like a woman was a woman, then had my Dr been a transwoman they wouldn't have given me that 'warning. ' I would have attended my appointment and then been faced with someone who I see as male. As a woman I've been conditioned to "be kind" so quite possibly would then allow them to conduct the fairly intimate exam out of embarrassment.

I'm also a survivor of long term CSA, and suffer cPTSD as a result. The consequences of that could be potentially catastrophic.

You can’t prove TWAW, you can believe it, as I do. You have the right to choose who examines you, and to refuse to be examined by anyone who makes you feel uncomfortable, for any reason. You have the right to request that you are treated by someone who is biologically female if you wish.

@DifferentHair rather than eye roll, maybe you could explain why it wouldn't be a hate crime instead? You know, to be constructive and to be kind?

It is entirely possible that such a refusal might be recorded as a "hate incident" if the person in question believes it to be harassment.

@CiaoForNiao

Thanks everyone. If it ever comes to it, having to accept TWAW in any and all situations I will probably stop attending medical appointments.

Or just get to know the doctors at your local surgery and ask for the one you feel comfortable with…

please google what a 'hate crime' actually is before throwing that term around.

Please inform yourself better about this "debate"

@DifferentHair

🙄 please google what a 'hate crime' actually is before throwing that term around.

I believe based on the most recent arrests that legally this can now include tying ribbons to fences. Or in a particularly ridiculous example, having a religious hate incident recorded against your name because you made a silly tweet about your cat being a methodist. thecritic.co.uk/the-british-twitter-stasi/ One of the many issues I have with this debate is the abuse of hate crime legislation for things that aren't hateful at all.

@DifferentHair

🙄 please google what a 'hate crime' actually is before throwing that term around.

A hate incident then, which can still be reported and investigated criminally.

You have the right to request that you are treated by someone who is biologically female if you wish.

In Scotland, this was recently tested wrt forensic examiners. The word 'female' was very contentious, but at last the parliament voted in favour of using 'female', rather than 'woman', as we know the Scotgov considers TWAW from FOIs. So it's true in Scotland that you can request a 'female', at least for a forensic exam post rape. I'm not sure if that holds true for doctors in general, nor of the situation in E&W.

There is at least one transwoman GP practising in the UK who is listed by their practise as 'female'. So if a woman requested a female she may well be given an appointment with a transwoman.

@Holly60

How do you propose the OP gets to know her doctors better so she feels more comfortable?

Invite them for a dinner party? Pop in and visit them during their breaks?

Or just get to know the doctors at your local surgery and ask for the one you feel comfortable with…

Which works really well at the moment. We have Dr A(female), Dr B (her husband) and Dr B Jr (their son)
Until of course Dr's A and B go on holiday and we have Dr B Jr and a locum. Who may or may not be female.

And asking for a female/woman Dr is fine unless the person you ask/the NHS as a whole are signed up to The "TWAW" school of thought. In which case asking for a woman Dr could get you a trans woman Dr. Or as a PP said it gets noted on your patient notes that you've committed a "hate crime".
I mean. Where does it stop?