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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

So, what is 'non gc' feminism?

419 replies

ArabellaScott · 22/06/2021 13:04

Hello, all.

What does feminism that isn't about sex/gender look like?

What subjects does it investigate?

What aims does it have?

Would be good to hear from those who didn't feel able to post before.

OP posts:
randomlyLostInWales · 23/06/2021 08:43

@aibubaby
But that's perfectly reasonable - trans men can get pregnant? Or are you against referring to 'trans men' at all? It isn't 'people who can pregnant' which seems to rub GC people up, it identifies trans men as a group of people who may be able to become pregnant.

Unless you're against trans people being able to describe themselves as such I can't see your issue with this.

No where did I say or imply Trans men couldn't get pg or shouldn't be allowed to say so Confused.

This is a magazine supposedly aimed at a scientifically literate audience who should know that pregnant means a working semi working female reproductive system.

That obviously includes any group who that is likely to apply to it shouldn't need further qualifications. It's implies that this audience no longer understand who can get pg which is vaguely insulting of the readership.

My problem is mainly the clunky language - it goes from two words pg female to a phrase that needs multiple qualifiers added to it. I'd have expected the sentence to have been re-written to talk about in pregnancy or possibly individuals planning pg. It's very much draws attention to the phrase with a look at us stance and detracts from the actual content of the article pregnancy.

I do think it highlights the issue with loss of language which was the orginal poster point. If you can no longer assume a scientifically literate readership knows who can get pg than talking about abortion and pg rights does get much harder and runs risk of being talked about less.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 23/06/2021 09:17

There's no such thing as non gender critical feminism. Critiquing gender, challenging the constraints it imposes on women's lives, is what feminism does and always has done. What's the point of it otherwise?

SelfPortraitWithEels · 23/06/2021 09:39

Also white women birthed and raise white men. So are just as guilty and part of it. So the entire “evil white men” trope is a smoke screen to let white women off the hook in my Opinion. Let’s blame white men while we have birthed and raised them and basically taught them the very tools of oppression, bathed them in patriarchy.

Can you explain more about this, Swede? I can't help reading this as blaming women for their own oppression/ the actions of men, which is deeply misogynistic.

Holly60 · 23/06/2021 12:05

@OvaHere

I have a working definition of the term ‘woman’. It includes transwomen. Female also has a clear definition. so when talking about feminism I might talk about the rights of ‘women’, or of ‘women and transwomen’ or of ‘females and transwomen’. Doesn’t make me less of a feminist to do so.

@Holly60

What do you see as the future of feminism that includes anyone who identifies as a woman?

I asked this of someone on another thread but didn't get an answer.

I can understand what male people identifying into womanhood get from inclusivity but what are the tangible benefits to women?

How does it improve feminism for women and girls?

Well the tangible benefits to women (and my definition includes transwomen of course) are that ALL women (including transwomen) are represented within feminism. It would be a bad idea to start excluding groups of women because they are different to other women - it needs to be a united movement to work.
Floisme · 23/06/2021 12:14

It would be a bad idea to start excluding groups of women because they are different to other women
Agree 100%. The disagreement is over how including males who do not identify as men brings any benefit. Writing 'all' in capital letters doesn't explain that.

Beowulfa · 23/06/2021 12:16

Oh look, moved to the Feminist Naughty Step for impure thoughts.

OvaHere · 23/06/2021 12:22

Thanks for the answer Holly I appreciate you returning to reply.

I guess we won't ever agree because you see transwomen as a different type of woman and I don't think they are women.

So you think it's exclusion but I don't think exclusion applies because no women are being excluded.

As for being united in feminism I'm of the opinion that including males is divisive and disunites us.

A bit of an impasse really.

Cailleach1 · 23/06/2021 12:35

This puts me in mind of Alice Walker's books. I devoured her writing in my earlier years. I adored 'In our mother's gardens'. I remember thinking while reading them that it didn't matter what colour a woman was, we were at the bottom of the heap in relation to being oppressed by men. Whether by everyday casual brutality of disrespect, or victims of male violence. Whatever the colour of the woman. Whatever the colour of the man.

WoolOfBat · 23/06/2021 12:37

@Holly60 how do you view any potential clashes between transwomen and women? Let me give you a hypothetical example.

Mary (biological woman) has been sexually abused. Mary needs a smear test but gets panic attacks if near a biological male.

Melissa (transwoman), is non passing and very sensitive about her appearance. Melissa does smear tests and would feel that her gender identity was invalidated if Mary refused her to do the smear.

Is there a conflict of interest? Who should get their way?

In GC feminism these clashes don’t exist.

Holly60 · 23/06/2021 12:52

@Floisme

It would be a bad idea to start excluding groups of women because they are different to other women Agree 100%. The disagreement is over how including males who do not identify as men brings any benefit. Writing 'all' in capital letters doesn't explain that.
I think it comes down to whether you accept that women don’t have to be biologically female. I do and therefore think these women should be protected alongside all other women.
Holly60 · 23/06/2021 12:57

[quote WoolOfBat]@Holly60 how do you view any potential clashes between transwomen and women? Let me give you a hypothetical example.

Mary (biological woman) has been sexually abused. Mary needs a smear test but gets panic attacks if near a biological male.

Melissa (transwoman), is non passing and very sensitive about her appearance. Melissa does smear tests and would feel that her gender identity was invalidated if Mary refused her to do the smear.

Is there a conflict of interest? Who should get their way?

In GC feminism these clashes don’t exist.[/quote]
Hang on - this situation could arise regardless of GC feminism - the existence of GC feminism does not preclude this situation from occurring as men can be nurses too. So even if Melissa wasn’t recognised as a woman in law she could still do the smear test. She could also present as a woman if she chose.

Mary has the right to choose whichever individual she wants to do the test and nothing changes this. She can refuse to be treated by whoever she wants, as can anyone.

As this is totally hypothetical I have no bloody clue how Melissa would feel

Waitwhat23 · 23/06/2021 13:07

Like this rape survivor who asked for a female to conduct her breast exam due to trauma and had her letter passed around the hospital Trust as an example of 'transphobia'? www.brightonandhovenews.org/2019/12/09/hospital-apologises-to-rape-victim-for-branding-her-request-for-same-sex-breast-screening-medic-as-transphobic/

picklemewalnuts · 23/06/2021 13:08

@MarshmallowSwede

Well when we are telling black women they are less oppressed than trans women who happen to be white. That’s part of the issue.

Black women are continually being silenced and called phobic when they bring up women’s issues.

Are we going to discuss how basically white men are now telling black women and women of colour that they are now more oppressed than them?

That would be of interest. Because If we really want to get into the white supremacy topic that’s part of it.

Also white women birthed and raise white men. So are just as guilty and part of it. So the entire “evil white men” trope is a smoke screen to let white women off the hook in my
Opinion. Let’s blame white men while we have birthed and raised them and basically taught them the very tools of oppression, bathed them in patriarchy. But white women are innocent. And now that’s rolling down onto black women and other women of colour.

Are we going to talk about that?

I absolutely see how I raised my sons as the place I had the opportunity to resist patriarchy and racism. My success will have been limited by my own limitations/ignorance and the culture that surrounds us, but I certainly worked at it.
MolyHolyGuacamole · 23/06/2021 13:10

@ArabellaScott

Freeble, that's interesting, thanks for your input.

I live in an area that is almost entirely white (rural Scotland). So that area isn't something I know very much about. Would be good to hear more. Hopefully you'll be making threads on the topic?

Your whole tone on this post reeks of sarcasm and this one in particular is pushy. It will take time for others to feel comfortable posting again, it won't happen at the snap of your fingers.
ArabellaScott · 23/06/2021 13:11

Sarcasm? Are you kidding me? Shock

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 23/06/2021 13:12

Pushy?!!

Wow. Scunnered. Absolutely scunnered.

OP posts:
Blibbyblobby · 23/06/2021 13:13

Well the tangible benefits to women (and my definition includes transwomen of course) are that ALL women (including transwomen) are represented within feminism. It would be a bad idea to start excluding groups of women because they are different to other women - it needs to be a united movement to work.

To "work" in what way, for what purpose?

I think before we should say who Feminism is for, we need to understand what the purpose of Feminism is.

To me, it's to counterbalance and eventually dismantle the historic sexism that has lead to women and men having unbalanced powers and roles in our society to the disadvantage of women.

In most cases, that means stopping something - for example VAWG, deliberate sexism, unconscious bias, expectations of caring and domestic labour placed unequally on females in the family, generally socialisation and social roles.

In some cases, it means treating female and male people differently because of our different physical capabilities and reproductive roles - for example maternity leave, sports.

In many cases, it means temporarily treating female and male people differently until we can get the underlying problem stopped - for example most physical single sex provision is there as a refuge from VAWG, female-only shortlists are there to counteract unconscious bias.

Therefore in my view, the group of people whose needs are addressed by Feminism is not defined by the specific word Woman and therefore by whatever the word Women happens to mean today, but as the group of people who suffered that historic sexism. So while I'm fine with the word Woman including trans women going forward, that does not mean the sexism suffered by female people retrospectively applies to trans women as well so nor should it mean that the rights and protections put in place because of that sexism are automatically transferred to trans women along with the label. Whether you believe that sex should be a meaningful disntinction between humans or not, the simple fact that for millenia it was used to separate humans into woman and men and the women-by-sex did and still do suffer sexism because of it makes it meaningful, at least in the context of who Feminism is for.

Can Feminism fight for trans women? Absolutely. In the areas trans women's needs are aligned with female people, such as challenging gender stereotypes or male violence, Feminism's work to dismantle historic sexism will benefit trans people as well. Should Feminism include all needs of trans women in its definition simply because they are now labelled as Women, even when those needs are not aligned to the overall goal of counterbalancing and eventually dismantling the historic sexism that has lead to women and men having unbalanced powers and roles in our society to the disadvantage of women? No. Because Feminism isn't a free-floating cause that can be tagged onto any group that has the right label, it was shaped for and by the women - the female people - who needed it, and if you disconnect it from those people what you have might be called Feminism but it's no longer the same thing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/06/2021 13:18

As for being united in feminism I'm of the opinion that including males is divisive and disunites us.

I agree.

EsmaCannonball · 23/06/2021 13:20

Can you imagine how disempowered trades unions would be if they had to include the owners and they had to include the shareholders? You can't politically organise if you have to include those who are organising against you.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/06/2021 13:22

You can't politically organise if you have to include those who are organising against you

Exactly. I think certain people on this thread are very naive and speaking from a place of some privilege.

JustLost101 · 23/06/2021 13:25

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Waitwhat23 · 23/06/2021 13:26

@MolyHolyGuacamolehad also mentioned that I would like to hear more about freeble's thoughts as my knowledge and understanding of the issues is limited. I can't understand your post - you are presumably one of the posters who has felt that they did not want to post on the FWR board in its previous incarnation and a poster has brought up an interesting point that myself, Arabella and presumably others would like to know more about. Arabella didn't say this minute or soon, just that she would like to hear more.

You sound like you are just spoiling for a fight to be honest.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/06/2021 13:27

Is it really impossible to post without using misogynistic slurs?

MarshaBradyo · 23/06/2021 13:28

@JustLost101

Clearly the TERFs are just going to spam both boards with their One True View and Only Acceptable Form of Feminism
Isn’t TERF offensive to most?

I find it so

MarshaBradyo · 23/06/2021 13:30

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Is it really impossible to post without using misogynistic slurs?
On the FWR board too

Misogyny not welcome