So, what is 'non gc' feminism?

[ArabellaScott]

Hello, all.

What does feminism that isn't about sex/gender look like?

What subjects does it investigate?

What aims does it have?

Would be good to hear from those who didn't feel able to post before.

I'm looking forward to learning about feminism here. I'm great at GC feminism, but am a bit behind on feminism which isn't focussed on sex based rights/injustices. I've not come across much, to be honest. I've seen a lot of 'be kind' memes and 'women rise up and empower yourselves by doing sex work', but nothing I've found particularly helpful in protecting women and girls.

What about the patriarchy, is that a thing in liberal feminism?

Does liberal feminism claim that women are hampered by the social constructs associated with being female? So we'd all be fine if we just don't do girly stuff?

I can't seem to get away from GC feminism, it keeps inserting itself into how I understand the issues affecting women and girls.

Ok I’ll bite.

I’ve been reading this board for 5 years.

For me, anti-racism and the fight against white supremacy is the fight of our lives.

GC feminism is so focused on the notion of women as oppressed by the threat of trans rights , it does not look at the the barriers placed on non-white women, by white women, the barriers placed on non-white men, by white Women. And there are SO MANY.

The endless focus on a perceived threat from trans rights ultimately feels like a school of thought that doesn’t want to self examine it’s own position as a power holder, doesn’t want to examine the advantages and privileges it does have.

Now I’m sure lots of people will be along to tell me why I’m wrong. I’m not going to come back to this thread to have a bun fight with them.

you asked what feminism means to me away from GC and that’s my answer.

My hope is that the splitting of the board allows a community to grow here, that doesn’t turn nearly all threads into discussions of trans rights, and is able to turn its attention to the huge gaps between white and BIPOC women, a gap that means black women die in childbirth more often, can’t protect their children from abuse, can’t predict a better life for their children...are more likely to die of COVID... will be paid less, will not see their beauty reflected in our media and culture, will not see their history taught as OUR history which it is. So much of what white women have, our wealth, our power, is built on Black suffering.

That’s what I want to talk about.

I could say so much more but I feel on these boards there are very few who are receptive.

I’m not just a woman because I menstruate, but because I experience female socialization and expectations, because I’m treated as a woman and expected to fill certain niches in society (which I think are often unreasonable), because I interact with a lot of the boxes marked as ‘woman’.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but surely you experience all of those things because you are a woman?

@Potteringshed and @MapGirlExtraordinaire it's interesting to get your perspective, thank you.

Potteringshed, your point about intersectionally is interesting -- that would be discussions I would be interested in taking part in. I suppose I would be hesitant to start one of those threads as I don't have direct experience of that type of oppression.

Another thread? No really Ambassador Arabella, you are spoiling us.

Please respect this boundary, and take this conversation to the GC board. So, as a GC feminist am I unwelcome here?

Should I be sensitive to my GC feminism and stay out, just as I do with my being white and so don't bother those who use the Black MNers forum?

I consider myself a GC feminist and enjoy a conversation about trans overlap but would also love to see a space for issues such as socialisation as women, raising girls and absolutely agree with the above PP about conversations around race and inclusivity.

I say that as someone who reads the trans threads a fair bit, but ultimately agree they were the majority on this board and I think it’s right they have their own space.

Thanks, PotteringShed, and MapGirl.

I appreciate good faith responses.

Interesting re intersectionality. So, we can expect more of that kind of post on here, I am presuming?

MapGirl, sounds like it's not so much the subject matter, as the tone you're looking for? More lighthearted chit chat type of stuff on this board, and more activism on the other?

DifferentHair, I find your post really rude and unnecessary. I wanted to find out what people think - the whole board has been disrupted because presumably people asked for it, and I wanted to understand why.

you are deliberately intruding on our space and seeking to disrupt and demean other conversations and views.

'our space'?

It's a valid question.

What does feminism that doesn't centre sex-based oppression look like?

@Pumperthepumper

I consider myself a GC feminist and enjoy a conversation about trans overlap but would also love to see a space for issues such as socialisation as women, raising girls and absolutely agree with the above PP about conversations around race and inclusivity.

I say that as someone who reads the trans threads a fair bit, but ultimately agree they were the majority on this board and I think it’s right they have their own space.

But people were always allowed to start threads on any topic of their choosing. They aren't 'trans' threads- it's women's rights. What can be more integral to feminism that's women's rights? Along with all the other issues such as misogyny, raising girls, the pay gap etc.

@Freebleweeble I won't tell you you are wrong.

I'd just check myself and remind myself that when white women have male chromosomes that line becomes blurred again!

And I find myself quite capable of introspection. I suspect many of the non white GC feminists here are equally capable!

We can all do more than one kind of 'fight' at a time!

But as you won't read this I suppose I have wasted my time typing it and trying to discuss your ideas - the reason this change was made to FWR!

Freeble, that's interesting, thanks for your input.

I live in an area that is almost entirely white (rural Scotland). So that area isn't something I know very much about. Would be good to hear more. Hopefully you'll be making threads on the topic?

Who is not allowed to post where? This is a bit confusing. I thought non GC feminism was about being kind and respectful to everyone?

I am looking forward to learning from the people on this board. Thank you for starting this thread

@AssassinatedBeauty

What do you mean "this"? You are in the Feminist Chat section which is now reserved for you to discuss feminism without reference to sex and gender. Crack on, and start your threads about abortion and normalising "sex work". Without mentioning sex. Or gender.

This is so disingenuous. The "gender critical" feminists know perfectly well they wanted a section to be able to discuss trans issues.

The "sex and gender" title is your vehicle.

it does not look at the the barriers placed on non-white women, by white women, the barriers placed on non-white men, by white Women. And there are SO MANY.

Gender critical feminism is one aspect of feminism. Its ocus is sex stereotypes and women's sex based rights. It looks at the barriers you mention as much as most liberal feminism does.

This is so disingenuous. The "gender critical" feminists know perfectly well they wanted a section to be able to discuss trans issues.

That isn't true. Stop rewriting history.

@ArabellaScott
I'm GC and have contributed to various threads in the past, and they get me so wound up and angry! I noted in one of the most recent threads I posted in that I finally understood what being gaslit must feel like.

So yes, maybe a more lighthearted thread about general crap we put up with at work, nonsense on t shirts, cat-calling, expectations around school subjects for our daughters is what I consider feminism without a GC focus.

I can get behind the idea that people who present as girls and women probably experience some of this too?

Whereas the legal implications of the definition of 'woman' changing is clearly something which different groups will clash on.

yet you are deliberately intruding on our space

This isn't "your" space. Anyone has the right to post here, including people who dislike any kind of feminism.

The "gender critical" feminists know perfectly well they wanted a section to be able to discuss trans issues. Are you saying Justine is not telling us the truth? Because that is rewriting history - gaslighting us all!

Why the assumption that all GC feminists are white? Privileged? Somehow living up in the clouds with airy fairy ideas disconnected from everyday struggles?

Do me a favour! If you can’t even call yourself a woman these days without offending a man, that’s a major problem - especially for the most oppressed women in our society and the wider world. Femicide, rape as a weapon of war, FGM happen to women not transwomen or cis women or womxn or menstruated or chest feeders…or whatever label men want to give us because they don’t like us using the name we call ourselves.

I don’t understand non GC feminism, because it doesn’t exist. End of.

No. No "GC" feminists asked for a split of the boards, or an exclusive space at all, that's simply not true.

This thread is in "Feminist Chat", not "Feminism: Sex and Gender Debate". The Sex and Gender topic was not asked for by what you call "GC" feminists, and the vast majority objected to the change. Threads have been hived off from Feminist Chat, to free it up for you and others who requested the split to use as you now see fit.

@OldLang

I don't understand the logic of feminism without a working definition of terms like 'woman' and 'female'. Surely it could be encompassed by a fight for overarching human rights (which gc feminists obviously believe in too). Looking forward to hearing input from others who feel differently though.

I have a working definition of the term ‘woman’. It includes transwomen. Female also has a clear definition. so when talking about feminism I might talk about the rights of ‘women’, or of ‘women and transwomen’ or of ‘females and transwomen’. Doesn’t make me less of a feminist to do so.

@DifferentHair

I think the point you are trying to make is clear. Please consider your work done.

Please respect this boundary, and take this conversation to the GC board. You know very well that there are many who don't want to hear it, and yet you are deliberately intruding on our space and seeking to disrupt and demean other conversations and views.

I won't be returning to debate you on any of this, so don't bother @ me. I'm familiar with your views and I'm not offended I'm just bored of hearing them.

I for one am very grateful to MNHQ for creating a space for other feminist topics.

The Op is asking what those topics are. What areas of feminism can be discussed and considered as being separate from being a female?

@Holly60

I don’t understand a feminism that includes biological males and is based on womanhood being about gender stereotypes of femininity.

Good post op. I'm looking forward to learning more :-)